Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Did the French win the American Revolution?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>
Author
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did the French win the American Revolution?
    Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 06:16
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by Sparten

The French achieved their staretegic objectives in the North American theater, else where they were pretty convincingly defeated.
 
I think that's pretty well true.
 
The original question however was not did the French win the war from their point of view, but did French intervention win the war for the colonies.
 
The key factors there are the Battle of the Chesapeake, the only major fleet engagement won by the French (or anyone else) against the British in the 18th-19th centuries. If that had gone the other way, Yorktown would not have fallen, the British government would not have resigned as a result, negotiations would not have started in Paris, and at the very least the war would have gone on a lot longer. (And in fact French land forces played a very significant part in the battle of Yorktown itself.)
 
It's summed up pretty well on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Chesapeake
 
Check out too the siege of Yorktown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown
 

But North America wasn't the only theater of war. The effect of the French on the English ability to prosecute their campaign was hardly limited to French participation in North American engagements. 

Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 06:24

Originally posted by Red4tribe

I really do not believe that the British could have "won" the war if the French sat it out. However, I do think that the war would have been longer and bloodier than it was.

The problem with this theory is that the rebels did not enjoy anywhere near 100% support of the population. The vast majority were indifferent - of the rest, the rebels only slightly outnumbered the Loyalists. The majority decided not to oppose the rebels because they didn't want to be subjected to the terror tactics (lynchings, hangings, tar and feathering etc) that the rebels used against those suspected of being Loyalist sympathizers, but other than that, they probably couldn't have cared less who won. They just wanted to be safe during the conflict. If things got too bloody, the terror tactics of the rebels would have been a less risky proposition than the ongoing war - so the support of the majority would swing back to the British.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2008 at 11:08
Originally posted by edgewaters

But North America wasn't the only theater of war. The effect of the French on the English ability to prosecute their campaign was hardly limited to French participation in North American engagements. 

 
Of course. I don't think I said anything that conflicts with that.
Back to Top
Red4tribe View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jun-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2008 at 22:03
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Red4tribe

I really do not believe that the British could have "won" the war if the French sat it out. However, I do think that the war would have been longer and bloodier than it was.

The problem with this theory is that the rebels did not enjoy anywhere near 100% support of the population. The vast majority were indifferent - of the rest, the rebels only slightly outnumbered the Loyalists. The majority decided not to oppose the rebels because they didn't want to be subjected to the terror tactics (lynchings, hangings, tar and feathering etc) that the rebels used against those suspected of being Loyalist sympathizers, but other than that, they probably couldn't have cared less who won. They just wanted to be safe during the conflict. If things got too bloody, the terror tactics of the rebels would have been a less risky proposition than the ongoing war - so the support of the majority would swing back to the British.

 
The old myth is that 1/3 of the colonists were patriots, 1/3 loyalists, and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone. Modern historians believe that it was closer to 45% patriots and 15% loyalists with the rest wanting to be left alone. 45% is nearly half of the population, would the British have been able to pacify all of them? Would they be able to restablish effective control over the colonies, especially New England? I don't think so. Because the south had more loyalists, I think maybe Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina would have remained British(especially if Cornwallis had left his army there), but I don't think the British would have been able to take control over the rest of the colonies.  


Edited by Red4tribe - 28-Nov-2008 at 22:05
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

George Washington - March 15, 1783

Back to Top
Sun Tzu View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 31-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 362
  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2008 at 15:58
Oh you are right, Clinton was in New York while Cornawallis was in the South, thank you for correcting me.
Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Red4tribe

 
The old myth is that 1/3 of the colonists were patriots, 1/3 loyalists, and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone. Modern historians believe that it was closer to 45% patriots and 15% loyalists with the rest wanting to be left alone.


That would be modern American 'historians' struggling to perpetuate a myth of British oppression? Wink
Back to Top
Red4tribe View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jun-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2008 at 17:49
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by Red4tribe

 
The old myth is that 1/3 of the colonists were patriots, 1/3 loyalists, and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone. Modern historians believe that it was closer to 45% patriots and 15% loyalists with the rest wanting to be left alone.


That would be modern American 'historians' struggling to perpetuate a myth of British oppression? Wink
 
I think most people who read into the revolution can see that we weren't really that oppressed and that we probably overreacted.
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

George Washington - March 15, 1783

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 22:36
sorry but the us would have probalbly lost without france's help.  they sent us men and the navy and also money so we would all be having british accents

Back to Top
Red4tribe View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jun-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 01:55
Originally posted by playa818

sorry but the us would have probalbly lost without france's help.  they sent us men and the navy and also money so we would all be having british accents

 
Do you really still believe that after pratically all of the other colonies in the world are independent now, that we would be the one to still be under British control?
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

George Washington - March 15, 1783

Back to Top
latamyas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 21-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote latamyas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 09:02
I think that the american received 200 million franks aid from france; while greeks a few decates later managed to get a 2 million franks loan from england. I wonder what would greek have achived if they have had that kind of money.
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 11:42
Originally posted by Red4tribe

Originally posted by playa818

sorry but the us would have probalbly lost without france's help.  they sent us men and the navy and also money so we would all be having british accents

 
Do you really still believe that after pratically all of the other colonies in the world are independent now, that we would be the one to still be under British control?


Yes, because there'd still be a British Empire. Hurrah!Clap
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 11:52

It's not like the loss of the US is what ended the British Empire ...

Nor would retaining it secure the British Empire. Canada and Australia broke away, and it wasn't because Britain didn't have the power to force them to remain. It was because they made better allies than colonies. I imagine the same would have been true of the US, and probably much earlier.

Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 16:51
Originally posted by edgewaters

It's not like the loss of the US is what ended the British Empire ...

Nor would retaining it secure the British Empire. Canada and Australia broke away, and it wasn't because Britain didn't have the power to force them to remain. It was because they made better allies than colonies. I imagine the same would have been true of the US, and probably much earlier.



Sorry to disappoint you, but Britain still ruled Canada and Australia until 1982 and 1986 respectively. We just got so good at it you never noticed! Big smile 
Back to Top
Red4tribe View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jun-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2009 at 20:52
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by edgewaters

It's not like the loss of the US is what ended the British Empire ...

Nor would retaining it secure the British Empire. Canada and Australia broke away, and it wasn't because Britain didn't have the power to force them to remain. It was because they made better allies than colonies. I imagine the same would have been true of the US, and probably much earlier.



Sorry to disappoint you, but Britain still ruled Canada and Australia until 1982 and 1986 respectively. We just got so good at it you never noticed! Big smile 
 
The dates you mention are only when all dependence by those two countries on the UK was cut. The Domain was established in 1867, I believe, although I do not believe that is technically their recognized year of independence.
Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.

George Washington - March 15, 1783

Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2009 at 23:24
Canada's various political entities (provinces, "colonies") completed their process of confederation in, I think, the middle of 1867.  However, Canada was not A confederation, but a federal state called a Dominion.  The Crown retained responsibility for defense and the most important aspects of foreign affairs. 
 
What to call it other than Canada had been a subject of debate, and someone of influence, who knew his Bible, came up with the word dominion.  IIRC, "And He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the rivers to the ends of the Earth" which is roughly a description of Canada.  (Psalms ?)
 
It was considered impolitic to call it the Kingdom of Canada with a certain republic south of the border.  Smile
 
British "rule" in Canada effectively ended long before the 1980s, and one of the Canadian forumers might know the correct date or dates.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 06-Jan-2009 at 00:24
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 01:01

Originally posted by Challenger2

Sorry to disappoint you, but Britain still ruled Canada and Australia until 1982 and 1986 respectively. We just got so good at it you never noticed! Big smile 

No it didn't. The Balfour Resolution, passed at the 1926 Imperial Conference, removed the primacy of the UK within the Commonwealth: the membership, including the UK, became "autonomous communities within the British Empire, equal in status, in no way subordinate to one another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by a common allegiance to the Crown and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations".

The Statute of Westminster (1931) further clarified the concept: "No Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend or be deemed to extend, to a Dominion as part of the law of that Dominion, unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested, and consented to, the enactment thereof."

In fact, because of certain provisions in Westminster, Britain had to seek the consent of the Dominion Parliaments to allow King Edward VIII to abdicate in '36. And if they want to make any other changes to the monarchy, Britain has to get permission from our Parliament first.

1982 was just patriation of the Constitution, since the original was an act of British Parliament, at the request of the Canadian Parliament. Before that there was no British rule, since (as the Statute spells out) it was illegal for the British Parliament to pass any law regarding Canada without being requested to do so by the Canadian Parliament. If that qualifies as rule, then today Canada rules Britain, since the UK must get our permission to make any changes to the monarchy (and unlike British Parliament in the case of patriation, we can deny permission!)



Edited by edgewaters - 06-Jan-2009 at 01:19
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 08:43
LOL! LOL I know. Just winding you up.

The point I was making was neither Canada nor Australia 'broke away' from the Empire unlike the 13 colonies in North America.  The British found an accommodation with the Dominions and possibly, without the intervention of the 'terrorist' Patriot faction, a similar accommodation may have been reached with the 13 colonies over time. There were stirrings of an attempt to reach such an accommodation in 1774-5 but this was never allowed to come to anything by increasingly extremist views on both sides of the Atlantic. 

Without French and Spanish intervention the colonies would have been defeated militarily and economically. Even with a 'post Yorktown stalemate' a British naval blockade would have starved the rebellion into submission.


Edited by Challenger2 - 06-Jan-2009 at 08:49
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 16:23

It's true that dominion status might at some point have been given to the colonies, possibly incorporating Canada too.

However, you can't ignore the Napoleonic wars, which would have provided an excellent opportunity for the colonies to break away, one which in my view they would have taken successfully, Britain being rather more preoccupied than it was in 1776. In which case of course it would still be possible to claim that the French won the war of independence for the US.
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 18:55
Originally posted by gcle2003

It's true that dominion status might at some point have been given to the colonies, possibly incorporating Canada too.

However, you can't ignore the Napoleonic wars, which would have provided an excellent opportunity for the colonies to break away, one which in my view they would have taken successfully, Britain being rather more preoccupied than it was in 1776. In which case of course it would still be possible to claim that the French won the war of independence for the US.


You can ignore the Napoleonic wars, since defeat of American rebellion and no French involvement, French Revolution unlikely. If no French Revolution, rise of Napoleon unlikely.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2009 at 20:29
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by gcle2003

It's true that dominion status might at some point have been given to the colonies, possibly incorporating Canada too.

However, you can't ignore the Napoleonic wars, which would have provided an excellent opportunity for the colonies to break away, one which in my view they would have taken successfully, Britain being rather more preoccupied than it was in 1776. In which case of course it would still be possible to claim that the French won the war of independence for the US.


You can ignore the Napoleonic wars, since defeat of American rebellion and no French involvement, French Revolution unlikely. If no French Revolution, rise of Napoleon unlikely.
Logically you're correct: on that basis you could ignore it. However I don't agree that defeat of the American rebellion with no French involvement would have prevented the French Revolution (and the rise of Napoleon). But that gets us into the much wider topic of the causes of the French Revolution, which is a bit away from the question here.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.