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Conquest of Madagascar

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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Conquest of Madagascar
    Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 05:59
I am not convinced about a metallurgy introduction from SEA  but  chronologically speaking its does not seem  impossible.  SEAN bronze working started c. 2000 BC (e.g. Ban Chiang Thailand ) Iron was same time later . Anyhow, around 500 BC , SEA ( including the islands) had many metalworking sites.


Edited by Sander - 19-Oct-2007 at 06:08
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 13:38
There is a good change iron metalurgy was also introduced into SS Africa from abroad. There are two possible external sources:
(1) From the north, along other innovations such as cattle, goat and agriculture techniques.
(2) From the east, from the Malgache culture founded by Indonesian/Javanese sailors.
 
Yes, it is also possible iron metalurgy is native to SS Africa, but there is no definitive evidence either against or for that thesis.
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 23:51
Subharan metallurgy might be  older than previously thought. Anyhow, this is what an Unesco article says :
 
  
IRON IN AFRICA: REVISING THE HISTORY
 
24-06-2002 10:00 pm Paris - Africa developed its own iron industry some 5,000 years ago, according to a formidable new scientific work from UNESCO Publishing that challenges a lot of conventional thinking on the subject. Iron technology did not come to Africa from western Asia via Carthage or Merowe as was long thought, concludes "Aux origines de la mtallurgie du fer en Afrique, Une anciennet mconnue: Afrique de l'Ouest et Afrique centrale". The theory that it was imported from somewhere else, which - the book points out - nicely fitted colonial prejudices, does not stand up in the face of new scientific discoveries, including the probable existence of one or more centres of iron-working in west and central Africa andthe Great Lakes area.
...
 
But the facts speak for themselves. Tests on material excavated since the 1980s show that iron was worked at least as long ago as 1500 BC at Termit, in eastern Niger, while iron did not appear in Tunisia or Nubia before the 6th century BC. At Egaro, west of Termit, material has been dated earlier than 2500 BC, which makes African metalworking contemporary with that of the Middle East.
 ...
 
 


Edited by Sander - 22-Oct-2007 at 00:22
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 01:08
That's quite interesting. I read it fully.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by jdalton

That the Bantu spread across the southern half of Africa because of their superior technology (specifically ironworking and farming) and pushed out or assimilated the hunter-gatherers previously living there is one of the most basic assumptions of pre-colonial African history. I've never seen it once questioned. There is ample archaeological and cultural evidence but I'm more familiar with the linguistic evidence. The Bantu languages are all very much related, and moreover the languages get more similar and less diverse as you move further from Nigeria. There are hundreds of languages (Bantu and non-Bantu) in Nigeria and only about 30 in Mozambique (all Bantu and all the same family within that heading). Google the words Bantu and history and you will no doubt find the Bantu expansion front and centre. There is still some uncertainty about who first started using iron south of the Sahara and why, but everyone agrees it happened in either West Africa or just south of Nubia and that it happened before the year 1. I'll start a thread on African iron some day.

I'm not saying that the Indonesians of Madagascar had no impact on the African mainland. I seem to remember reading somewhere about Asian crops spreading across Africa and adding to the diet of the entire continent? I'll see if I can find where I read that. In the meantime I'm only trying to defend the innovations that were clearly African. You might as well claim that the Mayans learned to write from the Spanish as say that the Bantu leaned to smelt iron from Indonesians.

Sander, I continue to doubt your Arabian source. It claims, for example, that African slaves were brought to China because they were "needed." But China hasn't had slavery as an institution since before Confucius, and he died in 479 BCE.
 
Iron spread across Asia and Africa in two seperate ways. Iron was invented in the Middle east and more specifically in Lydia. Here are the ways the invention of iron making spread:
 
Africa: As the rest of near Middle Eastern tribes picked up on iron making they started to conquer other settlements. The Hyksos conquered Egypt and introduced iron making to the Egyptians. Although the Egyptians continued to use bronze, for some odd reason, the Nubians mass produced iron making. At Meroe, ancient Nubian capital, they produced iron at a large scale which inevitably spread along East Africa and branched to West Africa.
 
Asia: The Aryans from the Caucasus Mountains spread through the Middle East and picked up iron making. They then went through the Middle East and conquered places South Asia, in particular Pakistan and India, and easily defeated Indians who were still using bronze weaponry. Later it spread throughout the whole of Asia through intercourse of trade.
 
So to say that Indonesians introduced iron making to Madagascar is untrue. In fact it is more likely the Bantu people who inhabited the island had it before the Southeast Asians themselves.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Arabian dhow? I won't bet on that at all. Indonesian ships had the system of ballancing and a different technique of building.

By the way, Astronesians, a term that group together both Indonesian and Polynesians, besides other related people, had very advanced nautical techniques, and the catamaran, far from being just a "canoe" it was a sort of Formula one race car of the pacific. Those people were the best sailors up to the Age of Discovery, far better sailors that the Arabs, I am afraid. You can see that catamarans are not just simple canoes at all.

The Middle East was VERY advanced in terms of ship building in fact Europeans extablished modern ships based on Arab ships, most noticeable Portugese. From before the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were expert ship builders and were able to traverse rough waters. Before we reached Southeast Asia, there really was no boats that were large and made for tough waters just fisher boats and small cargo vessels to traverse the calm waters of the Indian Ocean. Yes a lot of things come from Southeast Aisa such as the Lateen Sail but for the most part they didn't really travel extensively until the Arabs came.

We discovered them, they didn't discover us pinguin!Smile


Edited by andrew - 22-Oct-2007 at 20:56
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 20:58
Sure fellow?
 
After all, a branch of the Austronesians -the polynesians- conquered the Pacific, which represent almost half of the world. As far as I know, Arabs just trade the traditional routes from Africa up to India.
 
With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by pinguin

Sure fellow?
 
After all, a branch of the Austronesians -the polynesians- conquered the Pacific, which represent almost half of the world. As far as I know, Arabs just trade the traditional routes from Africa up to India.
 
With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.
 
Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 01:49
Originally posted by andrew

.. 
Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL
 
The Pacific is harly a peaceful ocean at all LOL
 
Fellow. Polynesians had better ships that arabs in the time frame from 5th century BC up to 15th century AD. Polynesians had catamarans, which were high speed boats that raced the waves. Besides, they were very skillful in orientation by the stars and the temperature of waters....
 
Sorry fellow, my first name is "Omar" and I admire Arab science, medicine, literature, music and mathematics... but in sailing those "primitive" Polynesians were centuries ahead of Arabs.
 
Arabs had anything like this:
 
 
 
 
 
 
Those boats were built for speed... nothing like that existed in the Arab world, no sir.
 
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 06:02
Originally posted by andrew

 
Africa: As the rest of near Middle Eastern tribes picked up on iron making they started to conquer other settlements. The Hyksos conquered Egypt and introduced iron making to the Egyptians. Although the Egyptians continued to use bronze, for some odd reason, the Nubians mass produced iron making. At Meroe, ancient Nubian capital, they produced iron at a large scale which inevitably spread along East Africa and branched to West Africa.
 
Maybe but what the evidence? If we must believe that undesco article then , for Nubia, no material data is found earlier than 600 BC. So, what do you have?
 
Originally posted by andrew

 
Before we reached Southeast Asia, there really was no boats that were large and made for tough waters just fisher boats and small cargo vessels to traverse the calm waters of the Indian Ocean. Yes a lot of things come from Southeast Aisa such as the Lateen Sail but for the most part they didn't really travel extensively until the Arabs came.We discovered them, they didn't discover us pinguin!Smile
 
' Discovered them ' sounds strange.  If a particulair etnicity reaches certain lands before those people reach the other is to be called a discovery, than the Dutch must have discovered the Indians and the Persians and many others. LOL
 
Look.  None of the modern nations in south asia , SEA and East Asia was isolated. All moden nation had polities within its modern bounderies that had direct maritime trade relations with the ' Middle east and rest of Asia before the earliest europeans entered. Regarding Asia there was nothing to discover actually.
 
"Just small ships' ? On what do you base this, on the smallest fishing boats ? This cant  come from  modern maritime historians. LOL  
Not from old records either. 
 
 In 1600 AD records we read that the largest javanese ships had a cargo capacity of 1000 tonnes.  ( several  times the capacity of an average 16 th century european ship, let alone arab that were smaller ).  Also, chinese sources (like the  3 th century chinese Nan chou I wu Chih" ' Strange things from the south'  ( SEA ) also mention those large ships with 600 people on them and large cargo .
 
There is more but Andrew, where do you get such ideas from?
 
 
 
  
 
 


Edited by Sander - 23-Oct-2007 at 07:07
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by andrew

Come on pinquin, you know Spanish you should know the Pacific in Spanish means peace. Polynesians conquered the Pacific because the islands are clumped together, you didn't need to larger ships that the Arabs used. Polynesians are tribal peoples, they did not have the need or means to build large ships to go island hoping.LOL
 
Pacific is just as pacific as the Red sea is redLOL.  Some example how quite this ocean is :
 
 
 
 
Sadler,James and Bernand Kilonsky. Meterological Events in the Central Pacific during 1983. Tropical Ocean Atmosphere Newsletter 21 pp. 3-5
 
Lets stay serious , please Wink 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sander - 23-Oct-2007 at 06:24
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 11:36

You guys are giving me sources of things from the 15th and 16th centuries well after the Arabs started their trans-Pacific trade between East and West. Also the picture pinquin had with the Arab ship is so awful I can't explain considering the Phoenicians and Egyptians had triremes since BC. The Arabs are great feritilizers of other people's cutlures they took shipbuilding from the Persians, Egyptians, Aegeans, and Phoenicians and picked up upon it. The Phoenicians mapped out the constellations well before anyone else did and traveled as far north as England in the stormy Atlantic.

 
Sander research Meroe there is little doubt the Nubians had iron before 600 BC.Wink


Edited by andrew - 23-Oct-2007 at 11:38
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 15:06
Arab ships of the times of Simbad the Sailor were not better than that boat. Arab ships were famous for its problems of constrution. In other words, you have to be couragious just to get in them. They were tide together by ropes, rather than by pegs of nails like other people did. Norse ships of the Middle Ages were a lot more advanced that the average arab cargo ship. Indonesians and Polynesians are known to be great sailors and have great tech since ancient times.

Edited by pinguin - 23-Oct-2007 at 15:07
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 20:33
Originally posted by pinguin

Arab ships of the times of Simbad the Sailor were not better than that boat. Arab ships were famous for its problems of constrution. In other words, you have to be couragious just to get in them. They were tide together by ropes, rather than by pegs of nails like other people did. Norse ships of the Middle Ages were a lot more advanced that the average arab cargo ship. Indonesians and Polynesians are known to be great sailors and have great tech since ancient times.
 
I'd like a source for these claims. Again it is ridiculous to say this considering the Persians, Egyptian, and Phoenicians all built large ships based on intricite designs.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 20:53

get info about shipbuilding in times of the arabs and compare with polynesian designs. Easy.

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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 21:46
Originally posted by pinguin

get info about shipbuilding in times of the arabs and compare with polynesian designs. Easy.

 
So it appears from the days of the Persians, Phoenicians, and Egyptians that under Arab control of the Middle East ships have regressed. I really am confused with what you are saying.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 22:03
I am just saying Polynesian and Indonesian/Javanese ships (related people) were superior than Egyptians, Phoenicians et all.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 22:26
Originally posted by pinguin

I am just saying Polynesian and Indonesian/Javanese ships (related people) were superior than Egyptians, Phoenicians et all.
 
And I very strongly diagree but this is a free forum and you are entitle to your opinion.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2007 at 02:46
Well, let's compare tech, then. Step by step. Let's start for the map of Polynesian and Indonesian routes.
 
Just notice that unlike Arabs, Indians, Chineses and Meds, the Polinesians didn't followed coastal routes, they navigated directly in high seas. Don't get it wrong, this map of the Pacific Ocean is larger than it seems, represents half of the world.
 
 
 
And the migration of early Malagasy people (Madagascar) also followed a high sea route
 
 
 
As I mentioned early, both Javanese/Indonesians and Polynesian peoples are related and known under the colective name of Austronesians. They are, without doubt, the best sailors up to the Age of Discovery.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 01:34
Originally posted by pinguin

With respect to iron, it may be that Bantues had it before Indonesians in Madagascar... however, the South East Asian influence is clear in everything else, particularly in musical instruments and game board.

I am not disputing your claim that Madagascarans influenced the culture of East Africans. Why not? Everybody else influenced them- the Arabs, Indians, even China visited East Africa. And I've looked it up now, Indonesian/Madagascarans did introduce bananas and Asian yams into Africa and they have been grown there ever since. Just don't try to take away one of SS Africa's most brilliant episodes, the development of ironworking and the Bantu expansion.

As for evidence (not proof, there is no proof) that West Africans either developed ironworking independently or saw other people using it (Hyksos? Carthaginians?) and then developed their own method to manufacture it rather than having some outsider teach them, how about this...

The origins of ironworking in sub-Saharan Africa soon after 1000 B.C. are still unclear. That early date is suspiciously close to dates for the arrival of Near Eastern ironworking techniques in Carthage, on the North African coast. Hence historians often assume that knowledge of metallurgy reached sub-Saharan Africa from the north. On the other hand, copper smelting had been going on in the West African Sahara and Sahel since at least 2000 B.C. That could have been the precursor to an independent African discovery of iron metallurgy. Strengthening that hypothesis, the iron-smelting techniques of smiths in sub-Saharan Africa were so different from those of the Mediterranean as to suggest independent development: African smiths discovered how to produce high temperatures in their village furnaces and manufacture steel over 2000 years before the Bessemer furnaces of 19th-century Europe and America.

-from "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond

China had cast iron from an early date and Japan had steel (I'm not sure when), but did Indonesia have steel in 1 AD? Africa did.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 03:00

I am not trying to taking away an African achievement. I am just wondering if the process was invented locally or was improved upon external influences.

 

 

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