Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Conquest of Madagascar

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597
  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Conquest of Madagascar
    Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 06:24
Originally posted by andrew

You guys are giving me sources of things from the 15th and 16th centuries well after the Arabs started their trans-Pacific trade between East and West. Also the picture pinquin had with the Arab ship is so awful I can't explain considering the Phoenicians and Egyptians had triremes since BC. The Arabs are great feritilizers of other people's cutlures they took shipbuilding from the Persians, Egyptians, Aegeans, and Phoenicians and picked up upon it. The Phoenicians mapped out the constellations well before anyone else did and traveled as far north as England in the stormy Atlantic.

 
Sander research Meroe there is little doubt the Nubians had iron before 600 BC.Wink
Seems there is a lot of doubt about that, if the article is right and used for further research. SS african metallurgy is far older.

Arab  vessels were stitched  vessels,  not so fit for long open ocean sailing. Its not because they did not use iron nails. Most ancient Indonesian ships used wooden dowels and lashed lug techniques but in advanced and complicated ways. Anyway, since you assert that ancient Arab vessels were such  great vessels , why not showing us a genuine first millenium AD drawing/model etc  (made in those days ofcourse) so we can compare a bit? Not some old greek,  egyptian etc vessel ; just arab please.
 
 


Edited by Sander - 25-Oct-2007 at 07:06
Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 02:20
Originally posted by pinguin

I am not trying to taking away an African achievement. I am just wondering if the process was invented locally or was improved upon external influences.

It may well have been imported. Without more evidence it is impossible to say even in what part of the Sahel ironworking first began let alone how it began. The Sahel is a vast area. But suggesting that it was imported through Madagascar leaves out anywhere from 1000 to 2000 years of Africa's iron age. There were important things happening in those 1000+ years. Things that belong to Africa.

Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 17:10
Actually, what matters in this thread is the spread of the Indonesians to Madagascar and its influence in South-East Africa. In there it is evidence the comming of the Asians changed things. If they contributed with iron making in South-East Africa, or at least with some techniques, it doesn't mean is related with the development of iron in the Sahel or West Africa at all. Those are two different things.
 
In fact, one of the question one should ask is how far Malgache influences spread through Africa. It was only along the coast, and in things like the introduction of the babana where theirs influence was felt? I do not know.
What I do know it is there is too little information about contact between West Africa and East Africa in pre-colonial times that it is hard to tell.
 
Only a few things are obvious: cattle and goats came from the north and spread with the Bantues.... Mozambique boats follow the model of Indonesians and Swahili registered some influences as well. The rest is just speculation so far. More studies are needed.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 27-Oct-2007 at 17:10
Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 05:06
The people of Mozambique speak Bantu languages and have Bantu genes. They are Bantu. Based on clear linguistic (and genetic) evidence the Bantu originated just south of the Sahel. They are most closely related to West Africans. There is archaeological evidence of ironworking in the Sahel from an early date and the genetic precursors of the crops and domesticated animals the Bantu kept all originate from north of the equator. The San, the people who lived in Mozambique previously, did not have iron tools or crops or domesticated animals or they would not have been pushed back to one small corner of the continent (South Africa and Namibia). The Bantu living in Mozambique grow North and West African crops such as yams and sorghum. They raise cattle, just like their Bantu ancestors. Why is it so hard to accept that the Bantu from north of the equator, who used iron and grew yams and sorghum and raised cattle, took all of this technology with them when they moved into Mozambique? When you compound this with the fact that the Bantu arrived in Mozambique before Madagascar was colonized by anyone, what basis is there for believing that iron was introduced through Madagascar? You are the only one, Pinguin, I have heard make this claim. 
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 06:17
On Swahilli:
 

Brief History of Swahili Language



(by Hassan O. Ali; revised by Abdurahman Juma)


The Swahili language, is basically of Bantu (African) origin. It has borrowed words from other languages such as Arabic probably as a result of the Swahili people using the Quran written in Arabic for spiritual guidance as Muslims.

As regards the formation of the Swahili culture and language, some scholars attribute these phenomena to the intercourse of African and Asiatic people on the coast of East Africa. The word "Swahili" was used by early Arab visitors to the coast and it means "the coast". Ultimately it came to be applied to the people and the language.

Regarding the history of the Swahili language, the older view linked to the colonial time asserts that the Swahili language originates from Arabs and Persians who moved to the East African coast. Given the fact that only the vocabulary can be associated with these groups but the syntax or grammar of the language is Bantu, this argument has been almost forgotten. It is well known that any language that has to grow and expand its territories ought to absorb some vocabulary from other languages in its way.

A suggestion has been made that Swahili is an old language. The earliest known document recounting the past situation on the East African coast written in the 2nd century AD (in Greek language by anonymous author at Alexandria in Egypt and it is called the Periplus of Erythrean Sea) says that merchants visiting the East African coast at that time from Southern Arabia, used to speak with the natives in their local language and they intermarried with them. Those that suggest that Swahili is an old language point to this early source for the possible antiquity of the Swahili language.

It is an undeniable truth that Arab and Persian cultures had greatest influence on the Swahili culture and the Swahili language. To demonstrate the contribution of each culture into the Swahili language, take an example of the numbers as they are spoken in Swahili. "moja" = one, "mbili" = two, "tatu" = three, "nne" = four, "tano" = five, "nane" = eight, "kumi" = ten, are all of Bantu origin. On the other hand there is "sita" = six, "saba" = seven and "tisa" = nine, that are borrowed from Arabic. The Swahili words, "chai" = tea, "achari" = pickle, "serikali" = government, "diwani" = councillor, "sheha" = village councillor, are some of the words borrowed from Persian bearing testimony to the older connections with Persian merchants.

The Swahili language also absorbed words from the Portuguese who controlled the Swahili coastal towns (c. 1500-1700AD). Some of the words that the Swahili language absorbed from the Portuguese include "leso" (handkerchief), "meza" (table), "gereza" (prison), "pesa" ('peso', money), etc. Swahili bull-fighting, still popular on the Pemba island, is also a Portuguese legacy from that period. The Swahili language also borrowed some words from languages of the later colonial powers on the East African coast - English (British) and German. Swahilized English words include "baiskeli" (bicycle), "basi" (bus), "penseli" (pencil), "mashine" (machine), "koti" (coat), etc. The Swahilized German words include "shule" for school and "hela" for a German coin.

For centuries, Swahili remained as the language for the people of the East African coast. Long-time interactions with other people bordering the Indian Ocean spread the Swahili language to distant places such as on the islands of Comoro and Madagascar and even far beyond to South Africa, Oman and United Arab Emirates. Trade and migration from the Swahili coast during the nineteenth-century helped spread the language to the interior of particularly Tanzania. It also reached Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, Congo, Central African Rebublic, and Mozambique.

Christian missionaries learnt Swahili as the language of communication to spread the Gospel in Eastern Africa. So, the missionaries also helped to spread the language. As a matter of fact the first Swahili-English dictionary was prepared by a missionary. During the colonial time, Swahili was used for communication with the local inhabitants. Hence the colonial administrators pioneered the effort of standardizing the Swahili language. Zanzibar was the epicenter of culture and commerce, therefore colonial administrators selected the dialect of the Zanzibar (Unguja) town as the standard Swahili. The Unguja dialect (Kiunguja) was then used for all formal communication such as in schools, in mass media (newspapers and radio), in books and other publications.

Now Swahili is spoken in many countries of Eastern Africa. For Tanzania, deliberate efforts were made by the independent nation to promote the language (thanks to the efforts of the former head of state, Julius K. Nyerere). Tanzania's special relations with countries of southern Africa was the chief reason behind the spread of Swahili to Zambia, Malawi, South Africa, and other neighbouring countries to the south. Swahili is the national as well as the official language in Tanzania - almost all Tanzanians speak Swahili proficiently and are unified by it. In Kenya and Uganda, it is the national language, but official correspondence is still conducted in English.

Thus, Swahili is the most widely spoken language of eastern Africa and many world institutions have responded to its diaspora. It is one of the languages that feature in some world radio stations such as, the BBC, Radio Cairo (Egypt), the Voice of America (U.S.A.), Radio Deutschewelle (Germany), Radio Moscow International (Russia), Radio Japan International, Radio China International, Radio Sudan, and Radio South Africa. The Swahili language is also making its presence in the art world - in songs, theatres, movies and television programs. For example, the lyrics for the song titled "Liberian girl" by Michael Jackson has Swahili phrases: "Nakupenda pia, nakutaka pia, mpenzi we!" (I love you, and I want you, my dear!). The well-celebrated Disney movie, "The Lion King" features several Swahili words, for example "simba" (lion), "rafiki" (friend), as the names of the characters. The Swahili phrase "hakuna matata" (No troubles or no problems) was also used in that movie.

The promotion of the Swahili language is not only in its use but also deliberate efforts are made throughout the world to include it in education curriculum for higher institutions of learning. It is taught in many parts of the world.

You can also read more on Swahili language by visiting www.glcom.com/hassan.



Edited by pinguin - 28-Oct-2007 at 06:21
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 06:23
Originally posted by jdalton

...When you compound this with the fact that the bantu arrived in Mozambique before Madagascar was colonized by anyone, what basis is there for believing that iron was introduced through Madagascar? You are the only one, Pinguin, I have heard make this claim. 
 
Perhaps I am wrong in that, and Iron was known earlier in Africa.
What is undeniable, though, is that the Indonesian influence in East Africa exist.
Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 02:18
Originally posted by pinguin

What is undeniable, though, is that the Indonesian influence in East Africa exist.

Oh yes, on that we agree completely. Also, Swahili is awesome. With so many languages in Africa it's perhaps not surprising that a "lingua franca" eventually emerged, but the fact that it emerged on the east coast of the continent is completely the result of trade and contact not just amongst African peoples but between them and the Arab and Indian and Indonesian worlds as well. In fact the Indian Ocean reminds me of the Mediterranean- only much much bigger of course. Given time you might have found the people in Zanzibar and the Maldives and Java and Kalikut having more in common with each other than they had with their inland neighbours.

Actually I guess in terms of religion at least, they did.
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 02:41
Interesting. If you can explain the relations between the people of the Zanzibar, Java etc in more detail I will appreciate it very much.
 
In fact, it is amazing that the mainstream history has almost forgotten this chapter so important in world history.
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597
  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 02:14
That s because of the once prevailing orientalistic view in western writings on the Far east.   They were  prejudiced in  their appraoch to Far Eastern cultures , especially SEA. In short , the seafaring activities and skills of the SEANS , especially the islanders were largely ignored or not given the attention they deserved.  The orientalistic view  of old times was that Indians were running the trading network between India, SEA and China  . Later on this turned out to be untenable for several reasons. Even the historical data in chinese records show that in  1000 years ( whole first millenium AD   )  the number  of Indian trading missions  via seas was very low ( about 10 ) compared to the 100 's from states in the island region.  ( middle eastern missions were also more numerous than those from Indian states ).
 
Speaking about the name 'India' ( and this is relevant for the discussion) ; Many people , incl. many scholars of today dont fully realize that for the old arabs and europeans , the name 'India ' did not apply to a political entity in the subcontinent . Although the name India was initially applied to the indus region ( now pakistan), it quickly became a generic name for a much larger region. It comparable how'Africa' and 'Asia', initially defined roman provinces, became names for much larger regions.
 
In the first millenium and second millenium AD the name 'India, or the adjective Indian ' was not used by any kingdom /etnicty in South -Asia or SEA. It was a geographic name used by Middle easterns and westerners for a region that included the Sub-continent , SEA islands and part of what is now mainland SEA. This region consisted of many independent polities. We can see a very good example in 10 th c. Arab book Kitāb 'ajā'ib al-Hind ( the wonders of India  ) . Here some separate kingdoms on the malay peninsula and islands are also said to be in the lands or islands of India). This ancient usage was even taken over by the Dutch and the British who both refered to theor own territories as British and Dutch India. In fact ,  the dutch refered to both the people of British -India and Dutch India ( nederlands indie ) as Indians ( indiers) .  Later on Indies and India were often used interchangebly.
 
This also means, that we should not make the mistake  to see older  historical references to  India' , 'Indian ships' 'goods from  India' as automatically refering to the subcontinent.   
 
Just one example how such references to 'India' were often misunderstood : In the 1500s the Ottomans recieved letters from the Acheh sultan in Sumatra ( now Indonesia ) . These letters were recorded in the archives as coming from a kingdom in 'Islamic India'. Ottomans did not makes an error here since  they used  India in the normal wide geographical sense. Nevertheless, the historians were automatically thinking of the subcontinent. After some deeper research, it became clear that Aceh in Sumatra was meant ; something also shown by the letters that were written in an Indonesian language in arabic script. ( see also  Acheh thread)
 
An interesting theory : Portuguese records ( Fra Mauro) mention how in the 1420s a '' junk from 'India ' ( zonchos de India ) came to Cape of good  Hope and ended even up in the atlantic ( this ship is by Menzies called a Chinese junk btw ). Well, it 's unclear wich of the Indias is meant here but  certainly ' insular India' ( the modern name indonesia actually means India-Islands, echoing  older foreign  names ) has the best cards. They are the surely the  ones that have unrefutable  evidence that they were familair with the southern part of Africa ( colonization of Madgascar ) and the old European records are very explicit in attributing to them  the former visits to Cape of Good Hope.
 
" The Javanese are all men very skilled in the art of navigation, in so much that they claim to have been the earliest navigators. Some, however, attribute this honour to the Chinese and affirm that the Javanese learnt from them. But it is certain that the latter [the Javanese] formerly sailed even to the Cape of Good Hope and that they have held communication with the Island of S. Lourenco [Madagascar], where are found numerous natives, tawny and of the Javanese type (bassos e ajavados), who are said to be descended from them [the Javanese]. "
 
Diogo de Couto 1597 ( quoted in  the mentioned Hornell article ).


Edited by Sander - 30-Oct-2007 at 03:56
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 13:48

Excelent post! That clarifies things.

Back to Top
jdalton View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 166
  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 21:47
Yes, good post Sander. When Columbus claimed to have found a route to "India," didn't he in fact mean Indonesia? I makes much more sense that Caribbeans could be mistaken for Indonesians than for people of the subcontinent.
Originally posted by pinguin

Interesting. If you can explain the relations between the people of the Zanzibar, Java etc in more detail I will appreciate it very much.

Well I don't know much of the details of Muslim missionaries in the Indian Ocean, but by the time Europeans arrived the northern tip of Madagascar, the Swahili and Somali coasts, the Middle East, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Maldives, Malaysia, and large parts of Indonesia were all majority Muslim, and Muslims were a powerful minority (often a ruling minority) in most of India. Their missionary efforts covered most of the coastline of the entire ocean, bar Antarctica and Australia, but didn't reach very far inland in Africa or Southeast Asia. This clearly suggests that for someone from (say) Zanzibar, the Rift Valley 700km inland would be more foreign in many ways than a Muslim trading port 7000km away in Java.
Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 22:02

Columbus mean Indonesians? Good point. It could be. After all they were after the specias, and many of those grew in Indonesia rather than in today's India.

Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 06:24

The hypo about Columbus and Indonesia is interesting indeed. How does Marko Polo call Indonesia in his book?

Since Columbus learned a lot about "India" from Marko Polo's book it could help us to clarify the issue.



Edited by Sarmat12 - 04-Nov-2007 at 06:24
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 12:25
They were called Specias Islands if I am not wrong.
Back to Top
Sander View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator


Joined: 20-Mar-2007
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 597
  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 13:59
Marco Polo?  he  used Isles  of India.  When he got more specific about an island,  he used names like Java etc 
 
Book III chapter 1. 
 
"Having finished our discourse concerning those countries wherewith our Book hath been occupied thus far, we are now about to enter on the subject of INDIA, and to tell you of all the wonders thereof.  And first let us speak of the ships in which merchants go to and from amongst the Isles of India".


Edited by Sander - 04-Nov-2007 at 14:04
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 21:23
Thank you, Sander. So, Java and Sumartra are Isles of India according to Marko Polo. Very interesting, indeed.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.