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Did Israel attack the US with Chertoff?

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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Israel attack the US with Chertoff?
    Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 17:13
You heard on NPR that Lieberman put this resolution forth "at the exclusive urging of the Jewish-American Counicl?" If so could you tell me the date and estimated time as well as the NPR channel you heard it on so I can go and listen to the report for myself? You will definately see the sponsers openly discussing their support of the resolution especially if they are from Republican states like co-sponsor Sen Kyl (R-Arizona). Here is the press release from Sen. Kyl's office concerning the resolution http://kyl.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=284471. By the by they don't have to advertise it it's public record and anybody who wants to know can go look at it. I disagree the deterioration of US-Iran relations is not only to the long-term detriment of the US but also to all the nations of the world especially those in the Middle East.

I find it interesting that you, in your last post, did not comment at all about the press releases but seem to have merely gone right over them. The press releases clearly show the sponsors advertising the resolution.

Here is a newspaper article about the resolution in question, which by the way has nothing to do with the question at heart of this thread. http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--lieberman-iran0926sep26,0,6941186.story.


P.S. Again if the links don't work copy and paste them they should work then.

Edited by King John - 06-Oct-2007 at 17:16
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 07:36
No, I don't have proof. I heard it on NPR which I deem as a reputable source. By the way, the way these things happen, you are not going to see the sponsors advertised as if it were a sports contest. The continuing deterioration of US-Iran relations is to the long-term detriment of the US, not Israel. So it just doesn't make sense to antagonize in such ineffectual way someone who could be doing something to decrease the killing your troops, at least the part they can control. 
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 03:50
Do you have documentation that Joe Lieberman "at the exclusive urging of the Jewish-American Council" put forth this resolution? Or is this conjecture?

I have found the press-release anouncing an Iran Resolution and it seems that in this amendment nothing is said about Israel but rather much is made of Iran funding "terrorist" (insurgent) organizations and killing US soldiers. I am no expert but that seems to me to be working in US interest and not Israeli. http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=284039 Here is a copy of the press-release regarding the designation of the Iranian Republican Guard as a terrorist organization. http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=284225 Again there is no reference to Israel but only actions against US interests, namely US troops in Iraq. Also not that the resolution is not put forth by only Joe Lieberman but rather Sens. Kyl, Graham, Coleman, Alexander, Ensign, Thune and Corker.

If the links don't work just copy and paste them and they should work then.

Edited by King John - 02-Oct-2007 at 03:51
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 00:02
Just to stress my point, i'd like to refer to the Congress Resolution passed last week which classified the Republican Guard of Iran as a terrorist organization. This was put forth by Joe Lieberman at the exclusive urging of the Jewish-American Council. This resolution has nothing to do with the interest of the US and if anything will deteriorate an already tense situation.   
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 12:19
No. But I use my common sense. If indeed the J-A lobby fully supported the attack on Iraq, don't you think they would also espouse an attack on a much bigger enemy for Israel, Iran? If things become heated up between the US and Iran, thus pre-emptying a US attack on Iran, watch for their (J-A) actions and sayings.

Last time I checked the "Road Map to Peace", it was dotted with a fence. Our neo-con Pres and Admin have not taken a stance on it (the fence)

Radicalism on either side is condemnable. Israel cannot live with daily rocket attacks on its soil either. Hamas and Hezbollah have to pipe down (literally) otherwise they just feed the militant, extremist side within Israel.

The pull of the J-A lobby coincides with the pull of the industrial-military complex (but for different reasons) thus forming a formidable  (but not unsurmountable)  front.
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 01:20
You can call all you want for peaceful solutions in the area but if the parties aren't willing to execute these solutions then calling for them is useless. Last time I checked there was a call for a 2 state system in the infamous "Road Map to Peace," an agreement facilitated by a neo-con president and administration. I really think that at the core of both our arguments is the same theme. No country should garner special interest and status from our gov't. Where we differ is concerning the matter of the Jewish-American Lobby's influence on US foreign policy. I don't argue that the J-A Lobby has an influence on foreign policy but I will argue that they have as much pull as you say they do. The US will never attack Iran (at least not in the next 20 years) regardless of how much the J-A Lobby might want them to. Furthermore I don't remember reading anything saying that the J-A Lobby want a war with Iran. Do you have a source for this?
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 01:05
Originally posted by King John

All I'm saying Konstantinius is that Israels support in the US goes beyond the neo-cons and the Jewish American lobby. These ties go back way past 25 years. These ties started at the beginning of the cold war, when Israel was one of the only democracies in the area, it is only natural then for the US (the top democracy) to support her (Israel).
With respect KJ,
 US support was also shaped by the guilt this country bore in the post-WW II era of not having done enough early to prevent or alleviate the Holocaust. The ties were forged more under moralistic guilt and dilemmas than actual geo-political considerations. These conditions have been radically altered today
 I also never stated that US foreign policy hasn't been shaped bu the J-A Lobby. I have however stated that there is no proof that Chertoff aided in any espionage conspiracy conducted by Israel.
I am not arguing for the opposite. Nor do I personally have any evidence for that. If there were evidence he (hopefully) wouldn't still be in his position.
Chertoff's connection to this "spy ring" is what the article is about. If the larger implications and associations concern you, wonderful, that's your perogative. However as a US citizen I am more concerned about the fleeting personal rights that we enjoy, these have nothing to do with the Jewish - American Lobby and more to do with the powerful wanting to keep power beyond that which the Constitution grants them. That is more of an afront to freedom than the Jewish-American Lobby is.
I absolutely agree. Nor am i too concerned that my freedoms will be eroded by the J-A lobby. It is the neo-cons that I'm worried about. An attack on Iran, though, would both erode liberties even further AND be in accordance (and with the eulogies) with Israeli foreign policy. Again, it will not be the J-A lobby that will be the main factor in an attack on Iran; it will be the neo-cons that are running the goverment. But, with eroding popular support and increasing fiscal difficulties, they will grasp at ANY support they can get, especially one coming from such a powerful group. I would really like to see the major J-A organizations condemn any further aggression in the region and call instead for peacefull solutions to the crisis with respect to human rights and national sovereignty of others. this would really earn my respect and I would tip off my hat to them.  
I respect your opinion, and think I have been respectful in my responses to your opinion, just as the reverse is true. I however respectfully disagree with your view of the situation. And to be quite honest I really don't care if you criticize Israel or the US relationship with Israel but don't blame the entire relationship on the Jewish Lobby, the situation is far more complicated than that response shows.
I also agree but would like to add that IN RESPECT TO FOREIGN POLICY and as part of a wider overhaul of the system, our foreign policy in regards to Israel must come under review, i.e no more 'special" status for that country, especially if it endangers US interests in the area 
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 00:38
All I'm saying Konstantinius is that Israels support in the US goes beyond the neo-cons and the Jewish American lobby. These ties go back way past 25 years. These ties started at the beginning of the cold war, when Israel was one of the only democracies in the area, it is only natural then for the US (the top democracy) to support her (Israel). I also never stated that US foreign policy hasn't been shaped bu the J-A Lobby. I have however stated that there is no proof that Chertoff aided in any espionage conspiracy conducted by Israel. Chertoff's connection to this "spy ring" is what the article is about. If the larger implications and associations concern you, wonderful, that's your perogative. However as a US citizen I am more concerned about the fleeting personal rights that we enjoy, these have nothing to do with the Jewish - American Lobby and more to do with the powerful wanting to keep power beyond that which the Constitution grants them. That is more of an afront to freedom than the Jewish-American Lobby is. I respect your opinion, and think I have been respectful in my responses to your opinion, just as the reverse is true. I however respectfully disagree with your view of the situation. And to be quite honest I really don't care if you criticize Israel or the US relationship with Israel but don't blame the entire relationship on the Jewish Lobby, the situation is far more complicated than that response shows.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 00:03
King John, you can go ahead and believe whatever you like; that's why we live in a (still) free country where all opinions are (supposively) respected. The connections between the neo-cons that have been governing US foreign policy for the last 25 years and the Jewish-American lobby based in Washington DC are well documented and obvious to anyone with an open mind. I'm not going to argue about the technicalities of Chertoff's dual citizenship any longer. It is the larger implications and associations that concern me.   
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 23:31
Chertoff's Israeli Citizenship has nothing to do with his post. This is a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument that holds no water. You and the author make these ascertions that Chertoff's decission making is effected by his US and Israeli citizenship, but never back it up. The fact that he holds dual citizenship does not mean that every move he makes as the head of National Security is governed his Israeli citizenship. And may I add that the US' dislike for Iran goes back longer than I think you care to remember. In 1979 there was a revolution in Iran and US hostages were taken. Now you are going to argue that this (the hostage taking) was done in response to our support of Israel, which would be false. It was done because we were backing the oppressive gov't of the Shah of Iran. So this had more to do with US Imperialism than Israel. Not to mention the role that the former Soviet Union was playing in the area, giving money and weapons to all those who opposed US interests in the area. See Syria, and the dissident groups of the MIddle East at that time.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 22:33
Why is it especially outrageous when the second citizenship is Israeli? Because Israel is the only country on earth that has openly attacked the US in an act of war and went unpunished; because Israel is the biggest recipient of foreign aid ($ 3 billion a year) with absolutely no accountability of how this aid is used--as opposed to stringent measures that hold other countries accountable, i.e Colombia. Because there are tight connections between the neo-cons that masterminded the war in iraq and the Jewish lobby in the US. It is no secret that the Jewish lobby actively supported and pushed for the war in Iraq probably thinking --like the neo-cons--that an easy victory is ahead for US forces. Look at "Forward"--Major jewish lobby publication--around the time of the preparations of the attack on Iraq as well as the comments by Howard Kor (sp?), APAC's (sp?) director. EVERY major Jewish-American organization was pro-invasion. The war in Iraq would not have happened without the neo-cons; but the effort also found major support in one of the strongest lobbies in Washington, the Jewish-American lobby. The American political system, unfortunately, is wide open to influence from organized interests, not just APAC and the other Jewish-American organizations--something that in my opinion, if it continues unchecked will be detrimental to this "democracy" or whatever is left of it. But very few civilian organized groups outside the industrial-military complex have the ability to influence US foreign policy as much as the Jewish-American lobby does. This is not healthy and must be checked because the national interest of Israel does not necessarily correspond to that of the US. I do not intent to sound anti-Semitic so please do not ring the alarm bell of "antisemitism" that is so often used as soon as someone dares to criticize the US-Israeli connection and the undue influence that Israel wields on the foreign policy of this country (US); I just like to call things by their name. Is it accidental that 2 out of 3 neo-con "axis of evil members"--Syria and Iran--are Israel's # 1 enemies? In my opinion there's nothing that the US has to be afraid of at least from Syria who traditionally has contained herself in a regional role and is at odds with al-Qaeda as much as Musharraf's secular regime or Karzai's in Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be neat for Israel if the US attacked Iran after a mis-calculated and irrational move removed the only regional power that in effect contained Shiite Iran, Saddam's Sunni, secular regime in Iraq? How long is this country going to be fighting Israel's wars in the M. East? What does that do for the long-term interests of this Empire--not the Israeli--in the region and the world in general? Chertoff's Israeli citizenship and the sensitivity of his post is just another proof of the tightness of the relationship between neo-cons/Jewish lobby. Please don't tear the garments on your body in an effort to prove how many governmental officials hold dual citizenships other than Israeli; there's probably quite a few. I will refer you back to reading the entirety of this post.


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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 21:40
You can be born in the US and still hold Dual Citizenship, and consequently be President of the US.   Example you ask, well let's say that a child, we'll call him Mark, is born in the US to an American father and an English mother. Mark grows up in the US as a US citizen but because his mother is English he also holds a UK passport and citizenship. One day Mark decides "I'm going to run for president!" Amazingly he wins, (yay Mark!), he is entitled to hold that office because he was a citizen born in the US, regardless of his second UK citizenship. Why is it especially outrageous when the second citizenship is Israeli? Why is Israeli citizenship worse than British (with whom the US has had a very special relationship with for the better part of the last century), German, Italian, Jordanian, or Greek citizenship?
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 19:13
Why is the US President required by the Constitution to be a US-born citizen? Probably because of the importance and sensitivity of the post. So dual citizenship is allowed to a certain extend when it comes to holding office, it is not universal. I am not discussing the oppinions of the writer of the article, but my own. I think that having a dual citizen at that post (Dept. of Homeland Security) is just outrageous ESPECIALLY when such citizenship is an Isreali one, REGARDLESS that, at that level, it is allowed by law (not at ALL levels, however, as I already mentioned). If you don't see anything wrong in the Americano-Israeli relations and the implications of those in the wider M. East area or the situation in Iraq, then I guess there's no point in continuing this discussion (or perhaps it is the subject of a different thread).
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 23:01

Konstantinius, I'm not the one who brought up the whole dual citizenship thing. In fact the notion that dual citizenship played any part in this "attack on the US" was implied by, if not explicitly stated in the article at the heart of this thread. You're the one who brought up that you were "disgusted that no one less than the head of the country's so-called Homeland Security Dept. is allowed to have dual citizenship and an Israeli one at that." This statement calls into question the legality of holding dual citizenship. By using the verb "allow" you are consciously or subconsciously implying that nobody is permitted to hold dual citizenship. With this said, not once did I bring up whether a US citizen is entitled or has permission under the law to hold dual citizenship. I however chose to rebut your statements with the statement that you quoted above. Shall I go further in-depth regarding the words of your statement and how you further imply illegality of dual citizenship? In response to your question of proof that Israeli citizenship didn't interfere with Chertoff's ability, I respond thus. I don't have to prove it. I'm not the one claiming to know how Chertoff's citizenship shaped his ability to do his job. This is a claim implied by the author of the "article." Was it really a digression? I don't think so. My comments were on point because at the heart of this thread is the question: "why does the American establishment sit back and do nothing?" The author of the "article" chose to highlight Chertoff's ethnic and religious background as a case for his inability to do his job - that is to protect the National Security of the US. Responders have also brought up the notion that dual citizenship could have affected his ability to do his job. Therefore the legality of dual citizenship is actually a pertinent topic of conversation for this thread, especially when certain people are "disgusted that no one less than the head of the country's so-called Homeland Security Dept. is allowed to have dual citizenship and an Israeli one at that." By the way why are you disgusted?

By the way how does it (the US relationship with Israel) strengthen the case of the conspiracy theorists?
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 20:22
Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by konstantinius

I, as an American, am absolutely disgusted that no one less than the head of the country's so-called Homeland Security Dept. is allowed to have dual citizenship and an Israeli one at that.



Actually this, the ability to hold dual citizenship in the US, has been discussed on this site before. It turns out that it is not illegal to hold dual citizenship.
We're not discussing the illegality or not of dual citizenship in general. Don't digress.
It is however not encouraged but this does not make the practice illegal. And by the way holding dual citizenship has nothing to do with his ability to do his job.
No, not with the ability. It might affect the outcome, though.

Can you prove that Chertoff's Israeli citizenship interferred with the responsibilities of his post?
Can you prove that it doesn't?

Sorry for the non-working links. For some reason this always happens to me when I post links on here. They should however work if you copy and paste them.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 16:38
     Well its no secret that there are Zionists and Zionist sympathizers in the ranks of many of the country's intelligence groups and administrative positions. I think most people, except for most Americans, are aware of this fact. You don't even need the Chertoff story to check out, just look at how the U.S. treats Israel. They give the same amount of aid to Israel as they do to the rest of the countries in the world combined. So 7 million Israelis get the same aid as the remaining 5 billion+ people on the planet, even though they are occupying parts of 3 countries, and they have a modern army with a nuclear arsenal, all paid in full by, you guessed it, the U.S.  If thats not an indication that they have friends in high places, then I don't know what is. The sad part is that the sympathizers of Zionists have no idea that the Zionists would kill their supposed friends and other innocents in order to achieve their goals. Then there are those who think anyone who speaks of Zionists must be anti-Semitic, as if annexing earthly land has something to do with a language group or supernatural beliefs.


Originally posted by Zagros

My question is, why does the American establishment sit back and do nothing?


     Because many of them are either Zionists, Christian Zionists or Zionist sympathizers, or they have some material gain out of supporting them. Or people who have nothing to do with them but are hopelessly controlled/influenced by them.
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 20:58
Originally posted by konstantinius

I, as an American, am absolutely disgusted that no one less than the head of the country's so-called Homeland Security Dept. is allowed to have dual citizenship and an Israeli one at that.



Actually this, the ability to hold dual citizenship in the US, has been discussed on this site before. It turns out that it is not illegal to hold dual citizenship. It is however not encouraged but this does not make the practice illegal. And by the way holding dual citizenship has nothing to do with his ability to do his job. Can you prove that Chertoff's Israeli citizenship interferred with the responsibilities of his post?

Sorry for the non-working links. For some reason this always happens to me when I post links on here. They should however work if you copy and paste them.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 17:46
Neither of those links work King John.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 16:46
I, as an American, am absolutely disgusted that no one less than the head of the country's so-called Homeland Security Dept. is allowed to have dual citizenship and an Israeli one at that. I consider it a major conflict of interest of the highest magnitude. I do not mean to sound anti-Semitic (but if I do, I could not care less) but I definitely oppose the role that the State of Israel is playing in the M. East and this country's (US) unabashed support of Israel in its foreign policy. It just makes all the "conspiracy theorists" sound so much more true in my opinion. 
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 14:26
Here are a couple of the links that I found:

the Brit Hume Reporthttp://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5133.htm this is just part four but you can click on the other parts at the top of the page.

also I found this today. This piece says entirely the samething that the "article" in question here says. In fact it would seem that the author of the "article" lifted a section or two from this piece. The similarities are remarkable. http://www3.davidduke.com/writings/howisraelcaused911.pdf

I can't remember the other terms that I searched nor can I remember the cites I have been to, I am remiss to say.
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