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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: True Arabs
    Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:56
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

Originally posted by Zagros

I really don' think the people of the middle east look the same - I can usually tell who is from Saudi, who is from Syria and Lebanon and North Africa, Iraq and Egypt - by looks. 
Agree Zagros but we are from the Area and know everything about it but the foriegner cannot recognize persian from turks or arab.
 
Yes, obviously there is overlapo as others have mentioned but usually it is obvious.  I am not talking about colour of skin I am talking about the general shape of the features.  In the same way I can tell who is Polish, German, French, Spanish, Irish, Greek, Italian etc.


Zagros, I have the same ability I can recognize those nationalities 95% correct. here in Vegas I see a lot of nationalities. 


Arabs from south are darker and you can say by their feature and those in north west Lebanese and Syrian are lighter and you can find south European elements on them. those from  north Africa except some Egyptians have different feature from other Arabs.

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.


Edited by Suren - 23-Aug-2007 at 16:57
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 16:57

In the same way that someone from France can look Spanish and vice versa - it's easily possible but still, in general, french and Spanish people are distinguishable from each other.

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 18:10

Hello To You All

 

Well I will give my take in this argument since I read a lot about the early history of Arabs and I have a good knowledge in genealogy.

 

First and Mr Hani wont like it at all Arabs existed as a considerable force in Mesopotamia and Syria since the 1st century BC, Remember Zanobia the Arab Queen that defeated the Persians? As for the Lakhmids their existence is a fact since they allied themselves with the Persians since they ruled the area known today as Al-Muthanna in southern Iraq. Ptolomy in his Geography mentioned their existence and the Arab cites like Petra and Hira are a testimony to their importance and finally did you ever hear of Philip the Arab?

 

Second and this is a fact that most minority nationalist, especially the maronites, wont like is that Arabs DO make the majority of the population in all Arab counties except the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco). More than 50% of Syrias are settled Arab tribes and more than 20% others trace their ancestry to one of the great Arab tribes especially the Druz and most of the Orthodox Christian population there. In Lebanon, most of the assyrian maronites emigrated after the crusades and catholic Christian Arab tribes (like Al-Khazen family for instance) moved there under pressure from the majority orthodox population who always were loyal to Muslim rulers. As for Iraq my friend Ahmad the Fighter (I hope that no harm comes to him and may things get better in Iraq) has more knowledge. The reason for that is simple. A very common misconception is that Arabia never had much population and it was always an empty waste land, well this is true for the total size of Arabia but not true for the available resources. Those resources were limited and the large number of people contesting for the little that existed means turbulent years and either victory or migration. And thus we find that all Semitic peoples emigrated from Arabia whenever sources were scarce and the strong tribes stay, the first to emigrate were the Akkadian, followed by the Canaanite, the Amorites, the Assyrians etc. The last people to emerge from Arabia and the ones that had the power there were the Arabs. And they did emigrate, at small waves initially and then by the Christian era large waves started coming. First there were the Qahtani tribes of Azd from which the Lakhmid and Ghassanids trace their ancestry. Then there were the Adnani tribes like Tamim, Bakr and Taghlub. In the last 150 years before Islam Arabia was so turbulent that some historians mention more than 1200 battles known as the Day of the Arabs between various tribes mostly on grazing and pastor land as well as water. The reason was the population explosion that happened and the shifting climates that lead to droughts. Arab tribes soon clashed with Byzantine and Persian empires and in the first years of Islam, they united to defeat the Persians in Dhi-Qar and they infiltrated deep into Iraq and even reached present day Mosul and Khuzestan and settled there before Islam came and quickly converted to the new religion. With the advancement of Islam large numbers of Byzantines chose exile rather than live under Islamic rule (including many Christian Arabs) and the vacuum was filled with new immigrants from the peninsula as well as many nobles from the former Sassanid Empire. Throughout the ages, the Arab population was largely safe from famines, plagues and wars that plagued the Middle East and by the 16th century and the Pax Ottomana (I dont know if the word is correct) Bedouins formed the majority of the population and many of them started resettling after peace was restored and they now formed a majority. Same thing but a different story in Egypt where Copts are definitely not Arab although they are immersed in Arab culture (strong tribal traditions, turbans and many social behaviors particular to Arabs and not previously know to exist before among Copts) so as a considerable number Muslim descendents of Coptic converts especially in Upper Egypt region. Most Egyptians are from the Lower Egypt which was settled by three huge waves of Arab tribes (7th century, 11th century and 14th century) which came to replace the ever shrinking population there in addition to other small but significant emigrations up to the 19th century.

 

My third point is Who is an Arab? An Arab means a guy immersed in Arab culture and tradition, a guy who is Arabized, with all due respect Copts cannot define themselves away from Arab culture since the live and think in the Arab and many gave important contributions to Arab culture and thought (Wadee Filasteen, Salamah Musa and many others) not in the Archaic Coptic language which few outside the church know it. Many of the Syrian and Iraqi leaders of Arab nationalism were ironically Kurds, Turks and Assyrians, Khalil Mardam Bey was Turk, Hosni Al-Zaeem was a Kurd and Michel Aflaq was Assyrian I think they all chose Arab culture as their nationality rather than confine themselves in regional or religious identities that give them little space for expression.

 

Thank You

 

Al-Jassas ibn Murrah  

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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 22:55
Originally posted by

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.
 
Amr Diab is Egyptian.
 
Lebanese actors are obsessed about looking European. A lot of them look pale, have surgery, and cake themselves in make up. I can't tell you how many Lebanese females have used contact lenses to make their eyes look green or blue.
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 00:47
Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 10:07
Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.
 
Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:15
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew? Why can't people just be proud of themselves?What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.


Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.


I think it has to do partially with the after effects of colonialism. Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, they were all colonized by either the British or French and therefore, the ruling elite were educated by them as well. The mentality regarding racial and cultural superiority being what it was at the time, and the concept of political correctness non existant, you can imagine what they were taught about themselves and their culture. Not to mention the strong effect that media imagery can have on a people. If you grow up seeing a certain standard of beauty shown in your magazines, movies, television, and those images do not look like you, you assume that you have to emulate what you see to meet the acceptable standard. Why do you think that most blond European women are actually brunetts? Hey, know what most blonds and African Americans have in common? Black roots, ya get it!?
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:24
Same thing but a different story in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region> where Copts are definitely not Arab although they are immersed in Arab culture (strong tribal traditions, turbans and many social behaviors particular to Arabs and not previously know to exist before among Copts) so as a considerable number Muslim descendents of Coptic converts especially in <st1:place w:st="on">Upper Egypt</st1:place> region. Most Egyptians are from the <st1:place w:st="on">Lower Egypt</st1:place> which was settled by three huge waves of Arab tribes (7th century, 11th century and 14th century) which came to replace the ever shrinking population there in addition to other small but significant emigrations up to the 19th century.

I'm really uncomfortable with the statment that they replaced the poulation in Egypt. 1stly because I think it feeds into the heated accusations many people make that the present day population of Egypt is not biologically related to the Ancient population and that they are Arab invaders. I think it would be more accurate to say that there were maves of migration into the country. However, from visiting Egypt on a regular basis and looking at their appearance, I think it would be more accurate to say that they blended with rather than displaced the native population. there are very few Egyptians that I see who look like the majority of Arabs from the gulf. However, I'm willing to hear more about this.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 11:39

You are taking about an area larger than Europe. Of course they will be variations.

The Gulfs hagve a lot of African , iranian and S Asian influence.

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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 12:29
Personally, I'm not an Arab but I do have an olive complexion and come from the Middle East. Therefore people consider me an Arab. The American government considers me an Arab American and so does the Egyptian one, dual citizenship. If we're not talking about color then I understand but mostly only people from the Middle East can pick up on specific looks. Usually from looks we can tell they're from the Middle East but not the specific country. We usually use the accent of the language to pick up where they're from.
 
Really anywhere I go I know that being a 'Copt' is not a valid ethnicity so all I can call myself is an Arab. I don't have a problem with it but Arab brings about stereotypes and things like this. I got a message from the governor of Ed Rendell and it started out saying, 'Dear Arab-American family' so I know that I'm considered an Arab here.
 
I'm proud to be from the Middle East. I meet a Lebanese person I don't feel he is different but rather a brother.
 
BTW, Rakasnumberone can you tell a difference between a Christian Egyptian and a Muslim one?
 
Does anyone here notice Palestinians and Egyptians look very similar?
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 13:40
Originally posted by andrew

Personally, I'm not an Arab but I do have an olive complexion and come from the Middle East. Therefore people consider me an Arab. The American government considers me an Arab American and so does the Egyptian one, dual citizenship. If we're not talking about color then I understand but mostly only people from the Middle East can pick up on specific looks. Usually from looks we can tell they're from the Middle East but not the specific country. We usually use the accent of the language to pick up where they're from.

Really anywhere I go I know that being a 'Copt' is not a valid ethnicity so all I can call myself is an Arab. I don't have a problem with it but Arab brings about stereotypes and things like this. I got a message from the governor of Ed Rendell and it started out saying, 'Dear Arab-American family' so I know that I'm considered an Arab here.


I'm proud to be from the Middle East. I meet a Lebanese person I don't feel he is different but rather a brother.


BTW, Rakasnumberone can you tell a difference between a Christian Egyptian and a Muslim one?


Does anyone here notice Palestinians and Egyptians look very similar?


Yes I can tell the difference. Unlike most people in the world Copts are biological christians, meaning its part of their genetic DNA to be chirstian. You can tell this by certain genetic characteristics. All Copts are born with a cross either on the inside of the right wrist of on the back of the hand between the thumb and 1st finger. Muslims also have a genetic marker which can bee seen as a dark spot on the top of the forhead, this is how you can tell they are different religious species. JUST KIDDING!

Okay, seriously, there is no biologically disernable difference between copts and the rest of the population. Racially speaking, Copts like other Egyptians are mixed with many physical types, East African, Greco Roman, Berber, Anatolian, preIslamicSemites. I would say though that few Copts if any have any Arab ancestory though. Egypt is a mix therfore it depends on the family. Some families have more Mediterranian genes, some have more African genes, and then some are just hard to figure out unless you see the whole family. I have a buddy from Alexandria who looks like the average Olive skinned Egyptian, as do all his brothers and sisters except the youngest sibling who looks like an Ethiopian through and through.

I hung out with a lot of Palestinians in collage. Many Palestinians do bare a strong resemblance to many Egyptians for pretty much the same reason, they are a mix of various peoples. I think this is most true of the areas like Gaza, which are closest to the Egyptian boarder. There are also entire villages in Palestine that are black. I don't know their exact origins, whether they originally came as slaves, merchants who settled there or always were there. Palestine was a major corridor for people who migrated out of Africa and DNA shows 10% of the population in that area has the same African markers that Egyptians also carry. There are a lot in Jerusalem. They are very, very black, but dress like all the other Arabs. Perhaps since they are concentrated in Jerusalem they originally came as pilgrims to the Dome of the Rock and either chose to settle there or were stranded. You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians and there are cretain feature that are quite common in Egypt that I've never seen in Palestine or among the Palestinian community here in the States.

Of course they also have some Greko Roman and Ottoman ancestory as well. I have a friend who looks like a young skinny version of Taheya Carioca. Her father is what we would consider black here in the states, but her mom has quite a bit of Turkish ancestory. Her sister is very very pale with freckles and looks nothing like her. Genetic combinations are fascinating.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 14:47
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by Surmount

Wow is that true Andrew?

Why can't people just be proud of themselves?

What about other Arab people in other Arab countries, do they also try to look European.
 
Have you seen Lebanese programs or Egyptian sitcoms? They try to disguise themselves as Europeans and it is apparent to anyone. As for other Arab countries, it is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia and Iraq but if you look at Iran plastic surgery for Western noses is off the charts! The more Western you look in the Middle East the more attractive people see you and that is why people from Lebanon and Syria are resorting to this. I'm just stating fact, but why it happens is opinion.
 
it actually ends up looking disgusting most of the time.  The thing is most of them have pretty noses to begin with, it's not so much having european noses as it being a fashion trend.  Some people who can't afford it even put the bandage on their nose to make it look like they've had surgery.
 
This is what happens when people are banned from having fun in public, weird perversions left right and centre.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by

My own opinion: Arabs from Lebanon and Syria are beautiful. Just look at their singers like Nancy ajram, Haifa wehbi, Amr diab, Naval az zoghbi and You know what I mean.
 
Amr Diab is Egyptian.
 
Lebanese actors are obsessed about looking European. A lot of them look pale, have surgery, and cake themselves in make up. I can't tell you how many Lebanese females have used contact lenses to make their eyes look green or blue.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 21:51
Originally posted by

You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians
 
I don't know how they're 'much lighter' according to you. The Egyptian of the Delta are in fact lighter then the Palestinians I have met. I see a lot of the light brown where from north of Cairo most of the Egyptians are light brown to olive complexion.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 02:12
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by

You also see quite a number of Palestinians with fair skin but very kinky hair. On the whole though I find the majority of them to be much lighter in complexion than the Egyptians


I don't know how they're 'much lighter' according to you. The Egyptian of the Delta are in fact lighter then the Palestinians I have met. I see a lot of the light brown where from north of Cairo most of the Egyptians are light brown to olive complexion.


Like I said before, it depends on where they are from and what mixture they have in their back ground. Remember, I'm taking Egypt as a whole into consideration, not just the Delta and all of Palestine, not just Gaza.
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Genetic combinations are fascinating.
I really agree with you on this one, Rakasnumberone.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 10:24
Originally posted by

Like I said before, it depends on where they are from and what mixture they have in their back ground. Remember, I'm taking Egypt as a whole into consideration, not just the Delta and all of Palestine, not just Gaza.


I was only talking about the Delta. Middle Egyptians look very similar to Lower Egyptians, the 'Said' or where Saidis live my mom used to live in the Said, it's just south of Luxor you find a lot of Arabized Nubians so I understand. I usually don't generalize because nations like Libya, Algeria, and Morocco to the south have Trauregs but I usually don't take them into consideration.

Of course same goes for Arabians, to the North they're not that dark but in the south they are very dark.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 11:29
[/quote]I was only talking about the Delta. Middle Egyptians look very similar to Lower Egyptians, the 'Said' or where Saidis live my mom used to live in the Said, it's just south of Luxor you find a lot of Arabized Nubians so I understand. I usually don't generalize because nations like Libya, Algeria, and Morocco to the south have Trauregs but I usually don't take them into consideration.Of course same goes for Arabians, to the North they're not that dark but in the south they are very dark.
[/QUOTE]
I understand that, but if you say "EGYPT" then you have to be specific about the region you are focusing on, otherwise the reader assumes you are spaking about the country as a whole.

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.

The Nubians are a very distince ethnic group who speak several different languages and have cultures quite distinct from that of the Saidis. Of all the Nubian groups I think there are only one or two who speak Arabic as a first language. For the rest, Arabic is their second language.

You find most of the actual Nubian community living in the areas around Aswan today. Their actual homeland was much farther south. They were relocated to Aswan in the late 60s because after the building of the Aswan High Dam, their traditional homeland was flooded
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 17:00
Originally posted by rakasnumberone

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.
 
I can tell the difference. Also Bedhouins look failry similar to Saidis. I met one he looked like a Saidi.
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  Quote Rakasnumberone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 17:13
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by rakasnumberone

The Said itself extends much farther north than Luxor. The first big town you get to traveling south is Sohag. As for the color of the people, It is a mistake to assume that all the dark people you see down there are Nubians, or mixxed with Sudanese, they are not. However this is a common mistake/assumption that many people make because of the similarity in color. Unless a person is wearing traditional clothing, it is often times impossible to distinguish a Nubian from a Saidi based on external apperance. The overwhelming majority of the Saidis are dark, but they are native Saidis, not Nubians or Sudanese.


I can tell the difference. Also Bedhouins look failry similar to Saidis. I met one he looked like a Saidi.


Some do some don't. I have seen Bedu down there, but the thing is even though the Saidis tend to be dark, there are many who are very fair also. Depends on what is in their individual family background. Also one person can be of a different physical type than their cousins or siblings. If you look at my youtbe interview with Osaman Balata, he's like a tannish brown, but his brother is black skinned. When a person has parents or grand parents of variying skin tones and physical characteristics, the play of genetic combinations and dominant and recessive traits can express themselves in mant ways.   
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