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USA vs. USSR in 1945

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Poll Question: Who would win?
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Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: USA vs. USSR in 1945
    Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 16:32
God - the USA certainly - despite the Soviet's superiority in conventional armed forces numerically, their economy was wrecked and their country in tatters from the combined evils of war and Stalinism. The USA, however, had come out of the war much stronger, having dominance over the global markets as the exhausted European nations sunk into poverty and most importantly - they had the Nuke.
 
Operationation paperclip probably helped a lot as well - technically, although the Japanese were proficent early in the war with their machinery (such as the A6M "Zero"), they didn't utilize them properly and by the end of the war, America had superior flying machines. The German scientists that America nabbed in this operation gave America access to so many valuble military theories - the jet engine and the rocket were just two such advantages. Also, the American armed forces were in a better state technologically and logistically than the huge Russian ones. Despite Russian technical ability in many areas (T34, Tokarev automatic rifle, PE2 Peshka), their wrecked country would have ruined this advantage.
 
In my mind, it's not really the conventional Nukes that are the issue here - it's Russia's ability to deal with another war. Russia is at breaking point and couldn't recover from an atomic strike economically. Also, they couldn't mobilize and organise enough logistically to launch a conventional location (and if they did, their nation would be economically ruined very quickly). It's not really for the technical advantages - it's the economic situation of each nation after WWII.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 18:07
Soviet Union also captured a lot of rocket-scientists and whatnot, they even took specialised clerks with them who could assist them, unlike the Americans, who had to train their personel first. i think the Korean War shows that the air was not clearly dominated by America.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 18:37
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

God - the USA certainly - despite the Soviet's superiority in conventional armed forces numerically, their economy was wrecked and their country in tatters from the combined evils of war and Stalinism. The USA, however, had come out of the war much stronger, having dominance over the global markets as the exhausted European nations sunk into poverty and most importantly - they had the Nuke.
 
Operationation paperclip probably helped a lot as well - technically, although the Japanese were proficent early in the war with their machinery (such as the A6M "Zero"), they didn't utilize them properly and by the end of the war, America had superior flying machines. The German scientists that America nabbed in this operation gave America access to so many valuble military theories - the jet engine and the rocket were just two such advantages. Also, the American armed forces were in a better state technologically and logistically than the huge Russian ones. Despite Russian technical ability in many areas (T34, Tokarev automatic rifle, PE2 Peshka), their wrecked country would have ruined this advantage.
 
In my mind, it's not really the conventional Nukes that are the issue here - it's Russia's ability to deal with another war. Russia is at breaking point and couldn't recover from an atomic strike economically. Also, they couldn't mobilize and organise enough logistically to launch a conventional location (and if they did, their nation would be economically ruined very quickly). It's not really for the technical advantages - it's the economic situation of each nation after WWII.
 
Soviet military industry in perfect shape in 1945. In fact the only time when the totalitarian economy can be viewed as advantageous is the war time.
 
Wrecked country had nothing to do with it. Despite all the losses Soviet military industry only has been improving year by year since 1945.
 
I don't see any strong technological advantage of American forces over Russians.
 
Moreover, Russian army's morale far superceded American one.
 
You say, that the wrecked country wouldn't allow Russia to go for another war?
 
Why do you think America would be willing to sacrifise millions in war with Russia? I don't see sense in that.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 23:17
Yeah - my bad, I suppose not. Well, if the Russians had got planes like the mIGs in the 1950s, then aeronautically, they're in top form.
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  Quote TheOrcRemix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 22:40
USA no doubt.
 
The bomb itsself has enough weight to stike down russian moral.
 
the only two advantages i really see is moral, and a rife ammout of troops.
The United States controlled the seas. They could conduct any kind of millitary operation in a matter of minutes.
 
The moblization of the USSR troops would takes days, maybe weeks.
 
what it comes down to, is the bomb.
 
 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 23:09
Wait, we are just talking about USA vs. USSR. Why are some people talking about dragging Britain in?
 
It's hard to say. Is Britain going to do nothing as the Russians pave their way to America? How are Russians going to have their armies transported to America? Is America coming to Soviet Union? Whoever strikes first would have considerable disadvantage. That's why Cold War began.
 
A lot of people voted USA for their nukes... but are Russians going to just watch US plane loaded with atomic bomb (Not nuke) to fly into Soviet land? And what about the time required for producing atomic bomb? Back in the 1945, making one atomic bomb required at least 3 years.
 
America had 6 atomic bomb? Really? I though one blasted in New Mexico for testing, another one in Hiroshima and another one in Nagasaki. USA had no more, though they were making more... they need 3 years at least to make one.
 
Yes, the production of atomic bomb became more efficient as the time went by... but we don't necessary know that.
 
So it's harder for us to judge than we think...
     
   
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 04:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by kurt

USA would win, in my opinion. The Soviets defeated the Germans because they had numerical superiority, however, the nuclear bomb eradicates that advantage, leaving the Soviets with no advantages, and insurmountable losses.
 
This is totally wrong.
 
Is it? In World War Two an estimated 58 million people died, 26 million of which were Soviets ... and military casualties: axis - 5.5 million soviets - 10.6 million.
 
Don't get me wrong though, I respect the Soviets - personally i think they are responsible for the fall of the third Reich.
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 12:29

Huh, one of the most funniest things I read recently on the forum.  The attrition rate of the Soviet pilot was bigger, simply because the combat on the eastern front was much more intense.

 

Which means that Soviet Air forces in Eastern Europe were not as strong as the production numbers you cited allege since they had taken considerable losses, No?

 

Soviet Aces as well were send to the rear to train the pilots.

 

But not with the same frequency as they were needed at the front

 

It's much easier to shoot down the bomber than the fighter aircraft.

 

US bomber fleets were heavily armed and rugged aircraft and hardly helpless, as a force it was a nations bomber fleets that provide its Air Force with a proper offensive punch.

 

Allied bombing were not able to put on its knees small Germany, which industry was concentrated in limited places, given also the fact the the biggest part of the German airforce was on the Eastern front.

 

One word, Ploesti

 

According to Albert Speer the American bombing campaign was devastating as it prevented the German economy from ever approaching its potential, to put this into perspective.  Over the course of the war the US GDP rose by more than 100%, the German economy, about 13%...  Until the USAF went after Axis refining capacity  

 

This of course is beside the point as the bulk of Soviet industry would have been out of reach meaning that US and British bomber fleets would be most likely used to pound the Red Armys logistical capacity, that means rail, roads, bridges supply convoys etc

 

You think they would perform better against Russia? Not so say that they would have to cross the whole European continent to the Ural mountains where the Soviet military industry was concentrated.

 

They didnt have to, they simply needed to push USSR back into Russia and compel a peace agreement.

 

They would not be able the same ammount the bombing which was done on Germany, simply because of the logistic reasons, again those bombings were not able to put "Germany on its knees". More over they would face the whole might of the Soviet airforce, not just the remnants of the German fighters, most of which were on the Eastern front

 

Another thing the forces of USSR and USA could crush in 1945 only in Europe. There Soviets had total superiority while American forces were dispersed through out the world with the large part of airforces in Pacific.

 

The RAF would more than make up for any American numerical deficiency in Europe with respect to airpower.  Yes its US v. USSR but I dont see the UK sitting on the sidelines.

 

Now lets see, a superior training structure, better support, superior numbers, miniaturized radios in USAF and British fighters in a far greater percentage of fighters in service(This results in a huge advantage with respect to coordination), and superior fighter designs(The US and British were already rolling jet powered fighters off the assembly lines). 

 

My moneys on the combined USAF and RAF pulling complete air superiority.

 

U r not familiar enough with the Korean war. Americans did bombed Chinese supply lines in China. It was actually the place were they suffered the haviest casualties, since Chinese territory was protecting by the soviet pilots "volunteers". Again those bombings didn't help them to win the war.

 

Well since youre such an expert on that affair please tell me, what effect did bombing the bridges across the Yalu, or for that matter the bombing of Air Bases and supply areas in China?  Oh my mistake none of those things actually happened( well ok the USAF and USN were permitted to bomb the Korean side of the bridges on the Yalu which led to a rather ineffective bombing campaign.  But the US never attacked the Chinese transport structure inside of China. 

 

BTW American pilots flying F-86 Sabres managed a superior kill ratio over Soviet pilots in there Mig-15s despite the Migs superior performance, as it turned out the more aggressive tactical doctrine used by US pilots proved more effective(Granted tactics perfected by the Luftwaffe helped a lot, as the often outnumbered Sabre pilots relied heavily upon the finger four formation.

 

Besides youre comparing apples and oranges here, the highly mechanized Soviet Army would have been far more vulnerable to an interdiction campaign that the Armies China had sent into Korea and the American bomber fleets of Korea were miniscule compared to those the USAF had in Europe alone during WWII.

 

Im not saying that conventional bombing will win a war, but it can certainly make meaningful ground offensive by mechanized forces nigh impossible.  This certainly would have been the case if US and British Commanders pulled back to the Rhine in the face of a Soviet offensive.  The real question in this scenario is can the Soviets obtain complete surprise, if they can I see little chance for the allies to hold off the red army, lest logistical capacity should become overly stretched as it reached into western Europe.  Yet if the US and British could form a defense at the Rhine then it would only be a matter of time the Soviet Union crumbled.

 

Absolutely meaningless move. They wouldn't be able to win the war against Russia by establishing "beach heads" in the Russian Far East.

 

During the early stages of the war on the Eastern front entire Soviet Armies were being slaughtered and yet the USSR still stubbornly kept a substantial force in Eastern Siberia Pray do explain why

 

In fact, Soviet invasion to Manzhuria had perhaps even more shocking effect on the Japanese headquarters than the nuclear bombings.

 

U overestimate the Big Six, everything Ive ever read has suggested or said that it was not the success of the Soviets in Manchuria, which was quickly dismissed, but the end to Soviet Neutrality.  Even still up until the bombing of Hiroshima at least half of the 6 clung to the notion of the final showdown.  That during the invasion of Japan the Japanese would inflict enough casualties on the American military so as to destroy American morale and perhaps negotiate favorable terms.  It was the bomb that quashed this idea, immediately Hiroshima it became more a question of how to surrender with the more hawkish faction leaning towards a negotiated peace by using Russia as an intermediary.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 16:16
Originally posted by Laelius

 

Which means that Soviet Air forces in Eastern Europe were not as strong as the production numbers you cited allege since they had taken considerable losses, No?



what logic is that? Soviet air force had simply more losses because there was more Luftwaffe at the east front... besides, the Il-2 Sturmovik is the most produced plane EVER.


During the early stages of the war on the Eastern front entire Soviet Armies were being slaughtered and yet the USSR still stubbornly kept a substantial force in Eastern Siberia Pray do explain why



thats bullsh*t, Stalin in fact was able to remove significant forces from the Manchurian border because he KNEW Japanese would not attack him. he had a spy in Tokyo by the name Richard Sorge, a German born in Baku and devout Communist. you can look wiki or check the most recent AE magazine which has a little about him.

 

U overestimate the Big Six, everything Ive ever read has suggested or said that it was not the success of the Soviets in Manchuria, which was quickly dismissed, but the end to Soviet Neutrality.  Even still up until the bombing of Hiroshima at least half of the 6 clung to the notion of the final showdown.  That during the invasion of Japan the Japanese would inflict enough casualties on the American military so as to destroy American morale and perhaps negotiate favorable terms.  It was the bomb that quashed this idea, immediately Hiroshima it became more a question of how to surrender with the more hawkish faction leaning towards a negotiated peace by using Russia as an intermediary.


everything I read lately suggest that the bombs were just a PR stunt and that the Japanese were too scared to become a Communist puppet of Stalin, thats why they surrendered to the US.


Edited by Temujin - 21-Aug-2007 at 16:18
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 22:30
what logic is that? Soviet air force had simply more losses because there was more Luftwaffe at the east front... besides, the Il-2 Sturmovik is the most produced plane EVER.
 
Go back and reread what was said and then if you mind do it again, because the reference of casualties was meant to refer to the numbers of Soviet aircraft that were in service during mid 1945, since Sarmat orgininally posted raw production figures as an approximation of strength.
 
thats bullsh*t, Stalin in fact was able to remove significant forces from the Manchurian border because he KNEW Japanese would not attack him. he had a spy in Tokyo by the name Richard Sorge, a German born in Baku and devout Communist. you can look wiki or check the most recent AE magazine which has a little about him.
 
For the most part i'll concede this one, I thought for some odd reason that the transfer of Eastern troops didn't occur until a few months later than it did.  Even still the fact that the Soviet's maintained a significant number of troops in Far East even amidst growing anxieties over Germany suggest that the Soviet's would have, in the event of war between the US and USSR, kept troops in the far East to defend against the fairly substantial US military assets in the Pacific.
 
everything I read lately suggest that the bombs were just a PR stunt and that the Japanese were too scared to become a Communist puppet of Stalin, thats why they surrendered to the US.
 
Well the author's you've read must be geniuses if they could look at one of the most complicated and fateful military/political decisions in history and ascribe it to a single trivial cause, a PR boost.  What masters of conjecture to reach such a conclusion in the comparative absence of documentation, to suggest that the Japanese goverment was motivated to surrender by fears of becoming a Soviet client state.  Please tell me the names of these brilliant giants of politics and history.  I wish to see how they dismiss Japan's official statement of surrender to the Japanese people, which made virtually no mention of Soviet Union's successes in Manchuria but did state the following
 

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives.

 

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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 17:01
before any of this continues I'd like to apologize if I've been something of an ass, i suspect the sarcasm I've displayed has been un necessary. 

As for the articles you've read I would honestly like to see them out of simple curiousity.
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 20:08
A lot of people voted USA for their nukes... but are Russians going to just watch US plane loaded with atomic bomb (Not nuke) to fly into Soviet land? And what about the time required for producing atomic bomb? Back in the 1945, making one atomic bomb required at least 3 years.
 
Actually it took roughly three years to create a weaponized version, once the design was figured out actual production was more a question of enrichment, which took around several months.  By August of 1945 the US was producing at a rate of about 3 bombs a month.
 
Wrecked country had nothing to do with it. Despite all the losses Soviet military industry only has been improving year by year since 1945.
 
As impressive as the Soviet production numbers were they don't take into account the contribution Lend-lease.  Though it didn't provide a great deal of weaponry to the USSR it did provide a substantial amount of supporting resources.  Millions of tons of of leather and textiles, 1,500 locomotives, 250,000 trucks along with millions of tons of canned rations and no less than 15 million pairs of boots.  Throughout the war the USSR was able to focus more on the production of weaponry than were other nations.


Edited by Laelius - 22-Aug-2007 at 20:10
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 00:53
The level of contribution of the lend-lease you wrote about was not decisive at all for the Soviet military industry.
 
However, I don't blame you for lacking knowledge of the Soviet point of view.
 
Mostly due to the cold war influence, Western publications usually exagerrate the real impact of the lend-lease. Unfortunately, USSR had to rely on its own industrial capabilities. The absence of the Western help for USSR during the war wouldn't change anything for the Soviet military industy. Perhaps it would make the life of the Soviets a little bit harder but not more.
 
I can give u a lot of Russian sources supporting my point, however, I'm not sure whether it will be really helpful for you since most of them are in Russian language.
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 09:57
Well, 'Lend Lease' was pretty critical in allowing Soviet industry to concentrate on war production, and in particular weapons.  Having the supply of trucks cut off would have had a huge impact on Soviet offensives from '43-'45.  Foodstuffs (processed) were also critical as the loss and devastation of the Soviet food producing areas created critical shortages.

Regarding the wider question, it's really pretty difficult to comment meaningfully with a more detailed scenario being constructed.  Exactly when and how does the proposed conflict breakout?  Is it a 'surprize' attack in Europe?  Or a result of escalating tensions.  Has Japan been defeated?  Recall that the Soviets took a couple months after VE day to ship troops and supplies east to attack Japanese forces in Manchuria. Further note that the Soviets had an agreement with Japan prior to attacking them.  Does the conflict with the US take place before or after the Soviets attack Japan and Japan is defeated?  Before or after the US has dropped its only 2 nuclear weapons on Japan?  Who else is involved in the conflict?  What about Britain and the 'Commonwealth'?
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  Quote what_is_history Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 12:07
Thank goodness that we'll never kmow!
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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 09:30
I made a mistake: USA had 110 nukes and the range of the US-bomber was long enough, but the range of the US escort fighter was not long enough to protect the US-bomber. And US-bomber without an escort would have no chance against the Soviet fighterplanes and air defence.
USA could nuke down Vladivostock, Murmansk, Belarus and Leningrad and the red army in eastern Europe, but never Moscow and all great cities in the middle of USSR. Furthermore, the USSR had captured German tabun and began with a mass production of soman(which is more deathly than tabun). Therefore the USSR was able to annihilate the allied troops in western Europe and the urban population of UK, France and the allied controlled German cities. And Soviet submarines could attack US west and east coast with nerve agent shells. It would be a statement with many causualities.
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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 11:22

I have heared, that the B-36 bomber was able to attack every place in USSR and that the Mig 15 and the Mig 17 weren't able to attack it, because of the high flight of B-36. And there was no SAM. Could USSR protect its country against B-36 Bomber in the late 1940s? USSR had its first ICMB in 1953, but look at the ICMB number in 1960: USA had 12 and USSR had 2, why had USSR only 2 ICMB in 1960? Was the Soviet bomber force able o attack USA between 1945 and 1953? When could USA use H-warheads for ICBM's?



Edited by Scheich - 05-Sep-2007 at 11:25
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  Quote South Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 12:57
Re:  "IL-2 Sturmovik most produced plane EVER";
 
I'm not sure if the IL-2 is the Li-2, the Soviet version of the DC-3.
 
However, it was the DC-3 that was the most produced aircraft ever.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 14:09
Originally posted by South

I'm not sure if the IL-2 is the Li-2, the Soviet version of the DC-3.
 
However, it was the DC-3 that was the most produced aircraft ever.


DC-3 produced: 13,000

Il-2 produced: 36,000
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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 14:24
Il-2 and DC-3 were no bombers and would have no chance against US fighter aircraft.
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