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The case for Veneti

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Aristoteles View Drop Down
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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The case for Veneti
    Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 03:53

Another of those interesting little mysteries of the ancient world, the "Veneti" seem to be a case going to cause all deals of controversy in the future. Known mainly for their famous Situlae (http://www.istrianet.org/istria/archeology/situla-veneti.htm) and by a few references for their savage and warlike character, the Veneti were always resisting, as their neighbors the Etruscan, unveil their mysteries.

Unfortunatly, this little tribe, that apparently lived in parts of Istria, modern Slovenia and the part of Italian peninsula that took their name (Venice) of course, seems to be dragged into the recent developments of ethno-centric theories and of newly founded ethnogenesis myths constructed by people (where else?) in the Balkans.

This time it is the Slovenians. An acclaimed poet (!!!) of Slovenia, Matej Bor, has managed to decipher (???) the ancient Script of the Veneti and he states that it is a proto-Slavic language. It is the same person that claimed that Phrygic is another proto-Slavic language.

This person, who is endorsed by the official Slovenian government nevertheless, by generous funding and by getting the highest national academic award of Slovenia, along with a group of Slovenes historians and archeologists and a handfull of non-Slovenians (all of them interconnected) are propagating a few rather funny theories:

- The Veneti are the ancient Slovenian

- The Veneti once controlled a large part of Europe (they even proceed calling them "the first builders of European community" )

- The Slovenian language is a West-slavic rather than south-slavic dialect (?)

- There was never such a thing as "migration of the Slavs", as the forefathers of the Slavs are the Veneti and the Veneti lived "always" in the northernmost edge of the Balkans and central Europe.

- Have "discoverd" the oldest... wheel in the world (incidently, on Slovenian soil)

- Talk about "the oldest inscriptions in Europe", when we all positively know that the Veneti inscriptions are dated around 500 BC

Trying to "prove" those points, they violate any principle of archeology and linguistics, go into arbitrary and self-contradicting conclusions and present a set of dubious assertions as "undisputed truth". They are trying to propagate their points via Internet, and a few sites have been set up devoted to the new Slovenic ethno-genetic myth (here is one of those http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/ 

What have you heard about this new theory? Is there anything true besides another "we were here first" in the fine Balkan tradition?

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  Quote sennacherib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 04:21

Wow... I am speechless.

 

Incidentally I am looking for info on this very area (Istria/Slovenia). Know of any good sites?

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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 06:24

The first link I posted is interesting in some ways and has some data. You can find more by googling a bit, I am sure.

Moderators, would you please be so kind and remove the excessive "b"s from the topic title? I just tried to bold it (silly me ) but seems the titles don't operate the same way as the body text. Thank you.

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 09:02
Some of the most recent research on the language of the Veneti that I've seen points to it now being classified as an Italic language, and not just any Italic language but one closest in form to Latin than to any other ancient Italic language except Faliscan.
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 09:21

Ask and ye shall receive.......

The title has been fixed

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas
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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 10:09
Originally posted by Cornellia

Ask and ye shall receive.......

The title has been fixed

I thank thee, oh fair one

Sharrukin,

Interesting. I've found a site in Italian (a language who currently is not in my range) and it has transcriptions of some of the Veneti inscriptions. Seems to me a lot like Latin, but there seem somw words that could pass as Greek (no, no, no, I am not playing into this game, it's just how they looked to me). Nothing I could recognize as "Slovenian", although I have only a very limited familiarity with south-slavic dialects.

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 10:29

Well... Here in Poland we have excercised this in the past. As it's well known the Veneti could reach Gwynned in east Brittain as well. I belive UK won't start seeking for true pre-english in Venetis' language.

To be serious, Tacitus wrote that their language remained that of the Brittons. A branch of Celtic languages. It's interesting that some "kentum" influences on Slavic languages and pre-Germanic as well , lingustic researchers trace to possible neighbourhood of these groups to Veneti that would happened somewhere in the north-east shores of the Baltic Sea.

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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 10:35
Originally posted by Rava

Well... Here in Poland we have excercised this in the past. As it's well known the Veneti could reach Gwynned in east Brittain as well. I belive UK won't start seeking for true pre-english in Venetis' language.

To be serious, Tacitus wrote that their language remained that of the Brittons. A branch of Celtic languages. It's interesting that some "kentum" influences on Slavic languages and pre-Germanic as well , lingustic researchers trace to possible neighbourhood of these groups to Veneti that would happened somewhere in the north-east shores of the Baltic Sea.

You are Polish? Then you might be in position to give us some insight as to why Bor and other Slovenian are trying desperately to prove that their tongue is not south-Slavic but west-Slavic? Are there any fine implications I cannot fathom?

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 10:59
Perhaps you as a Greek better understand the balcanization of the history there. I think all of them in former Yougoslavia despertively search for identity.
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 13:12

Originally posted by Rava

I think all of them in former Yougoslavia despertively search for identity.

This is very true,I believe.

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 18:37
It could probably explain some of the whackiness going on up there in those mountains.  US and NATO military is still parked there waiting to see if anyone gets out of hand again.  Frankly, I don't care who does it, but when someone's search for national identity starts crossing the line into ethnic and racial extremism...

"There you go again!"

-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 02:10
US and NATO have nothing to do with that. If the stabilzation forces were not there they would probably kill themselves to the last one.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 02:32
Hmmm.  There should be a distinction between the Veneti of northeastern Italy and the Venedae of ancient Poland - two different peoples.  According to one theory, the Venedae were originally the name of one of the easternmost of the Celtic tribes.  Their name was adopted by the western Slavs.  In the first century AD they were located east of the Vistula which was eastern limit of "Germania".   By the beginning of the 6th century AD these western Slavs had taken possession of most of the lands between the Vistula and the Elbe river.  The Germans then referred to those groups near the Elbe as Wends.  These Wends of Germany were divided into three groups:  Abodrichi, Wilzi, and Sorabi, subdivided into their constituent tribes.  Their descendants are known as Polabians and Sorbs.  The easternmost Wends, among which included the Pomorani, Polanie, Vislani, Mazoviani, etc. coalesced to become the Poles.  The southernmost tribes: Czechove, Slovaks, and Moravjani became the Czechs and Slovaks of today.
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  Quote Hrodger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 10:35
Originally posted by Rava

Well... Here in Poland we have excercised this in the
past. As it's well known the Veneti could reach Gwynned in east Brittain as
well. I belive UK won'tstart seeking for true pre-english in Venetis'
language.



I think some have argued that wend in Baltic Sea is rather related to
Cwenas, a legendary coast people in northern Scandinavia. C.p. Pomors
and Pomerania ('coast people'). Thus, placename such as Gwent,
Gwyndyd, Gwenedd, Gynneth, Gwynne, etc. is possible a Celtic variant
where C is replaced with G, and sometimes excluded so that the form
Went appears.

C.p. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/13411

Today, wend in Scandinavian placenames are rather considered to be
from vnda, i.e. 'turn (around)', and not related to wend, veneti or
vandals.

Edited by Hrodger
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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 03:37

Originally posted by Sharrukin

Hmmm.  There should be a distinction between the Veneti of northeastern Italy and the Venedae of ancient Poland - two different peoples.  According to one theory, the Venedae were originally the name of one of the easternmost of the Celtic tribes.  Their name was adopted by the western Slavs.  In the first century AD they were located east of the Vistula which was eastern limit of "Germania".   By the beginning of the 6th century AD these western Slavs had taken possession of most of the lands between the Vistula and the Elbe river.  The Germans then referred to those groups near the Elbe as Wends.  These Wends of Germany were divided into three groups:  Abodrichi, Wilzi, and Sorabi, subdivided into their constituent tribes.  Their descendants are known as Polabians and Sorbs.  The easternmost Wends, among which included the Pomorani, Polanie, Vislani, Mazoviani, etc. coalesced to become the Poles.  The southernmost tribes: Czechove, Slovaks, and Moravjani became the Czechs and Slovaks of today.

Yes, Sharrukin, I know this to be one of the variant of the accepted theories about the origins of the Slavs. Although, the dialect the Slovenian speak is distinctly south slavic and now west slavic (according to most references I managed to view online - even some of the Slovenes who are in favor of the Veneti=Slovenians equation, argue that the Slovenian tongue is definitely south-slavic).

But they are not "confusing" the Veneti with the Venedae, they propose that the Veneti themselves, those that lived originally in Slovenia and pushed down Istria, into Venice (pushing back the Celts on their way and causing indirectly the sacking of Rome by the Celts) are the direct forefathers of the Slovenian and that their language is proto-Slovenic (rather than proto-Slavic).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 10:09

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 10:09
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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 10:23

Originally posted by Sharrukin

...These Wends of Germany were divided into three groups:  Abodrichi, Wilzi, and Sorabi, subdivided into their constituent tribes.  Their descendants are known as Polabians and Sorbs.  The easternmost Wends, among which included the Pomorani, Polanie, Vislani, Mazoviani, etc. coalesced to become the Poles.  The southernmost tribes: Czechove, Slovaks, and Moravjani became the Czechs and Slovaks of today.

These all are Western Slavs. Serbs of Luzice were in the middle between polish and czech (southern part) languages influences. The Polabians and polish tribes together belonged to so called Lach tribes and the language varied only in dialects. (Lach means: noble, landowner)

 

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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2005 at 07:12

I am getting more confused... Having some free (figure of speach, actually) time at work, I've googled abit on the subject, and I've come up with an interesting page with abstracts from papers presented at a convention with the quite fitting title "traces of the ancient european past " - you won't be surprised if I'd tell ya that this convention was held at Ljubljana, Slovenia?

As an apetizer, this is an older work of a Serbian, who, in his search for the Slavic ethnogenesis, lays the foundation for the later malady

AN ETHNOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION OF THE VENETI

Vojislav P. Nikčević

The paper presents data on the Veneti as ancestors of Slovenians or Slovjens published by the Serbian ethnologist Tatomir Vukanović in his book Ethnogenesis of the South Slavs (Vranje, 1974). These data have been collected from the writings of ancient authors dating from the 6th century AD. The data explicitly or hypothetically identify Slovenians as the Veneti even in the period when they were still settled in their primeval homeland in northeastern Europe and also later on their newly acquired territories all over Europe after their migration from their homeland towards the East, West and South. In the interpretation of the ancient authors, the name Slov(j)&en(e) is formed from the basic part slov- from the Slovjen word slovo (i.e., word or speech) and the non-slovjen suffix vene stemming from the West European word Veneti with the meaning of western dwellers of the sea coast in the time when the Veneti were settling the coasts of the Baltic before the appearance of name Slov(j)en(e). Accordingly the ethnonym Slovenec as one of the synonyms of the name Slovjene was formed from slov + veneti→ slovveneti → sloveneci → Slovenci. This is the essence of the etymology of this ethnonym as explained in the morphological and semantic meaning of this name.

And that's not it. Here is how the Slovenian evaluate the translations of the Verona Sword inscription. In brief: four translation, but only one connects the sword with the Slovene language and that is the correct one!

COMPARISON OF READINGS OF THE INSCRIPTION ON THE SWORD OF VERONA

Vinko Vodopivec

Scientists are still searching for an appropriate understanding of an inscription on the sword of Verona. A comparison of all the available interpretations of the up-to-the-present-time incomprehensible inscription can significantly improve its understanding. Here we have 7 different ways how to group together the letters and 4 translations. The working hypothesis should suppose to find an appropriate part of correctly grouped letters and an appropriate part of correctly recognized letters and intelligible words. An analysis shows that all the present groupings of letters were rather inconsistent. Concerning the translations only the translations by A. Perdih are strikingly different since this is the only one which even surpasses the set conditions of the working hypothesis and by this is the only one which most probably gives us the correct meaning of the inscription.

The results confirm the correctness of the translation by A. Perdih. His grouping of letters can be considered as appropriate, the translation is based on 68.3% of recognised letters, while the relevant percentage for the other authors amount to 4.8%, 20% and 19.5%. Concerning the recognized words, the translation by A. Perdih gives us a recognition of 90.9% of words. Other translations give us the percentage of words understood only at 38%, 41.7% and 38.5%. This study shows us that the translation by A. Perdih is the most trustworthy, while other translations are far less believable. Our study confirms the theory that the primeval origin of Etruscans should be sought in the Venetic roots. Both the Venetic and Etruscan inscriptions can be deciphered on the basis of Slavic languages. Also in this case the Slovenian language seems to be a very suitable tool, since its numerous dialects enable us to understand the older Etruscan inscriptions.

This monumental convention - papers abstracts - can be found here:

http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/TracesPast.html



Edited by Aristoteles
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2005 at 16:07
Strange.  We already know about "Skla-venoi" in the western Balkans, which were ancestral to the speakers of Serbo-Croatian.  The Byzantine writers found them all over the Balkans in lands formerly under their ruled which became known as "Sklavinias".  Among these Sklavinias were some found in Macedonia and Thrace.  Those "Venetians" sure got around!!!
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