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Can technology win the war in Iraq?

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can technology win the war in Iraq?
    Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 13:42
With robots, war will lost it's "humanity". The future gets more and more vague.....
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 14:13
The US military believes robots will "Never" take the job of a basic infantry man, but will only work together with them.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 21:35
Sparten, my point it that technology may help the US to design a new mid-tern strategy (e.g. end bombs and killings in Baghdad). Of course robots won't replace foot soldiers or a good general may they may help both.

It would be interesting to see the stats on the number of US troops killed while working on a road block or any other job that could be executed by a robot. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50%.

Concerning the viability of cameras in hostile territory, it makes no doubt that it will be a tough job but it is sure as well that some technique can be thought of (the camera would be small or armored or moving, or set not directly above the street or whatever else they may come up with).
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 23:34

The problem in Iraq is lack of realistic objectives, I don't think even cutting edge technology is going to make up for that.

Also the local forces the U.S. is trying to set up as a counter to the insurgency and sectarian fighting are so compromised that there's little hope of ending the fighting under the current political structure.
 
It's a political/cultural/religious struggle, IMO there won't be a military solution to the war in Iraq. Any effort to try and control the path of development in Iraq by U.S. forcces is going to cause more resistance not less.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 02:03
Frankly if I was a US policy maker I would simply redefine the Iraqi mission as "control of oil" and withraw to the oilfields and surrouding regions. That is a achiveable objective, and one which ties in with US startegic interests.
 
As for robots for IED's well they have a use certainly, but recent insurgent tactics seem to be that the IED's are covered by an MG or a motar team. A robot takes its time and the humans are exposed.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 10:52
Originally posted by Sparten

Frankly if I was a US policy maker I would simply redefine the Iraqi mission as "control of oil" and withraw to the oilfields and surrouding regions. That is a achiveable objective, and one which ties in with US startegic interests.
 


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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 11:24
Originally posted by Sparten

Frankly if I was a US policy maker I would simply redefine the Iraqi mission as "control of oil" and withraw to the oilfields and surrouding regions. That is a achiveable objective, and one which ties in with US startegic interests.
 
That's basically what the original mission was, and why things went so wrong.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 12:27
Thats the mission the US Army planned for and had forces for. Not the grand "remake Iraq" strategy that caused things to go wrong.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 12:28
That's basically what the original mission was, and why things went so wrong.
 
Exactly. What do you think the original mission was? Find the WMD? Bring democracy to the towelheads?
 
The mission is ALWAYS to protect American INTERESTS. That is what the CIA reports talk about, never democracy, liberty or such propaganda. When applied to a country full of oil, it becomes to protect the oil.
 
However it will never work, because the age of military imperialism is over. You just can't move into a country with your military and steal their resources. Without local support, you can't just build crusader castles around oil production sites and hold them. That never worked in the past, doesn't work now, and won't work in the future.
 
Your electorate can be dumb enough to buy the WMD or democracy story, but the natives will never buy it, eventually you must kill all of them. America even tried doing that in Vietnam (they carpet bombed the countryside with more explosives than used in World War II), but it didn't work (other than killing a few millions).
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 12:29
Ah yes you can. The US in Iraq is trying to hold the whole country rather then specific areas.
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by Sparten

Thats the mission the US Army planned for and had forces for. Not the grand "remake Iraq" strategy that caused things to go wrong.
 
The focus has always been on oil and not rebuilding Iraq, which is the core of the problem there. The Oil ministry was at the bottom of the list of facilities Jay Garner and his group wanted to protect after the invasion, but it was the only one which was protected. Most of the remaining government infrastructure in Iraq was destroyed by looting after the fall of Saddam making reconstruction almost impossible. 


Edited by DukeC - 07-Jul-2007 at 13:34
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 12:03
When I was reading the Afghanistan War topic, it reminded me of one technology that has helped tremendously and has put the odds of winning every fire fight over the top favoring the US. Thats Night Vision. They also use flares that radiat Infer-Red and makes the area light up like day with Nightvison on. They said they basicly just pop one off at a time til they give up because they have no idea where they're getting shot from.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 16:19

Technology is irrelvent in Afghanistan due to the nature of the terrain.

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 20:08
I think whats been done so far says the total opposite.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 20:46
Ah yes you can. The US in Iraq is trying to hold the whole country rather then specific areas.
 
Depends what you mean by 'specific areas'. If they are oil production sites, it is impossible.
 
If they are satellite micro-states such as Kurdistan, maybe.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 01:31
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I think whats been done so far says the total opposite.
How so? The US is unable to project its power any further than Kabul and the surrounding areas. The terrain has played a big role in that. Its thye Nam all oevr again, the US is forced to rely on Helicopters.
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 02:07
The topography and climate of Afghanistan definitely favor the locals. Very cold in the winter and equally hot in the summer, it's a challenge for any armed force whatever the level of technology. The mountainous terrain limits the routes units can take effectively channelling them into ambush sites. Last week Canada suffered its worst single incident loss of the conflict when six soldiers were killed by an IED that demolished the armoured vehicle they were in. The Nyalas have been effective up till this point, but the Taliban has changed tactics to compensate, using such a large charge there was no hope of survival. Technology cuts both ways and the Iraq war has been a laboratory for insurgency techniques.
 
Unless NATO takes the approach the Soviets did and depopulates large areas of Afghanistan, it's forces are going to be contiually hit by guerrillas hiding among the local popualtion. Considering we're supposed to be there to help the people, that's not going to happen.
 
This map of Canadian casualties illistrates the point of how the geography limits the battlefield.
 


Edited by DukeC - 09-Jul-2007 at 02:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 04:25
Thing is you should read David Hackworth, probably the most successful commander in Vietnam. As he points out at the end of the day it was a man with a rifle vs another man with a rifle. All he high tech did not mean anything at all.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 09:41
How so? The US is unable to project its power any further than Kabul and the surrounding areas. The terrain has played a big role in that. Its thye Nam all oevr again, the US is forced to rely on Helicopters.
How so??? Have you seen UAVs? Did you see I mentioned a simple technology such as Nightvision?
UAVs the most as we are in the Information Age. The whole US Military is working on systems that all interact with each other and allow ease of Communication. It works with these UAV, and also UGVs which are coming on the seen with greater numbers. Not only does the US military have hand held versons of each that allow you to look over the hillside or scope out a building before entering it, they also have larger UAVs and someday UGVs that not only do reconnaissance, but will and do attack targets also allowing the option of not putting a human in harms way. So far, it's been successful, a number of high targets have been killed by UAVs with the operator being hundreds of miles away.
Also, if they are not looking to hit a target(which they usually have that option even if it's not apart of the plan) They can send it out on it's own and have it take reconaissance photo's in any number of spots, then have it return where it'll land itself and turn it's engines off, allowing personnal to attend other flights and not have to worry about that one.
Technology has only made it easier, without it, casualties would probably be upwards towards what we saw with the Soviets fight there, which is numbered around 14,000.
In the Information Age, terrain is only a problem when it's difficult to get there. But when even Satellites have the ability to watch you at night, information is going to be more valuable then strategic points.


Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 09-Jul-2007 at 09:44
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 10:09
Sparten I slightly disagree with you on that as it seems to me me that the US troops in Iraq are not in a men-with-guns-v-men-with-guns situation as most US troops are killed by IEDs, snipers and other stuff that they just can't see coming.

Similarly they say it requires six times more IEDs now to do the job of one IED before (i.e. if in 2004 one soldier was killed every three bombs it now requires 18 bombs to kill that soldier). Knowhow may have a role here but technology too (do you imagine the US would still be in Iraq if the losses in 2006 had been six times higher?).

Then when you see how and when US soldiers are killed you realize that logically it mostly is when they are on the move or when that are static and away from cover and reinforcement. In that sense an unmanned road block that could be safely managed from a bunker a few yards away sounds like a good idea. If unmanned material allows to reduce the number of moves the soldiers have to do out of their base, even better as it offers less targets to the enemy and allows the military to concentrate their resources on the few remaining (the day each patrol will be babysitted by a Predator attacking US troops may become a very unpleasant job.

Obviously the American public cares less about the money than about the losses, reduce significantly these losses and you'll win the war on the long run, keep them at 100+ a month and you gonna have to move out soon. I (a great armchair general) don't think technology can win the war but it can help it greatly
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