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A question regarding what i can post.

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    Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 11:38
Originally posted by armenica

Originally posted by Seko

No. You don't get the picture! Your subtle intent to insinuate is obvious. Our blacklist came from experience regarding all of those topics. They were created by the previous administration and are maintained by this current one.
 
No, I don't agree. Do you imply that this forum has less civilised members who are not able to discuss issues in a dignified matter? What about the other forums that this kind of issues are allowed to be discussed without black-listing the topic?
 
Generally I can't see why the admin can not block a certain user instead mass-punishing the entire community. That's not the correct way to handle the question and certainly not in this question since silencing the truth about the Armenian genocide is exactly what the denilist part wants to achieve.
 
As far as it goes for Turkish-specific topics, I think it's hard to help not noticing that half the black-listed topics are Turkey-related. That's just an observation which I think everyone would agree with. As I see it there are no roon in this forum for criticizing anything that could be wrong with Turkey, its past or presence. Isn't this the gist of this black-listing?
 
 
This forum has quite an amalgam of civilized members who can and yearn to discuss many important issues in a civil manner, however, the forum unfortunately is plagued by a pestilence knows as spammers, and trolls whose sole purpose is to either ruin the flow of the discussion, or start flame wars by spewing ethnocentric, and nationalist propaganda, and hate speech that is counterproductive to the purpose of this forum. I have frequented other forums, and it always ends up being the case that most other forums are of a much lower caliber, and of less, and less eloquent clientle than this forum so your attacks on the membership is imbecile.
 
 


Edited by es_bih - 11-Sep-2007 at 11:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 11:44
Furthermore, the topics do not only concern Turkey singularly but other countries as well I do not see where your rationale comes for assuming that Turkey can not be criticized, the purpose of the blacklist is that certain events of which there were more than one participator that cause flame-wars are restricted so that the smooth flow of this forum is not interrupted.
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 14:26
Originally posted by es_bih

Furthermore, the topics do not only concern Turkey singularly but other countries as well I do not see where your rationale comes for assuming that Turkey can not be criticized, the purpose of the blacklist is that certain events of which there were more than one participator that cause flame-wars are restricted so that the smooth flow of this forum is not interrupted.
 
But why then not ban the user(s) instead on banning the issue? I can't quite grasp that solution. Admin could simply warn and then block the users in question instead on apply mass-censorship.
 
...and I don't intend to prolong this discussion just in order to re-open this topic. That's up to the forum and admin. I simply think that it's pitty that a "history forum" should be forced to close down such a up-to-date question when the EU talks abuot it, US Congress talks about it, the Jewish organisations in US have started to reconsider their stand in regard to this question etc. But if you think that it's nothing but head ache, then it's entirely your call.
 
Cheers!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 14:33
The forum tried banning users on an individual basis before, not just for this topic, and the flame wars it caused, but in general, however, such topics generate an annoying, and infinite number of trolls that simply banning individual users does not do much good. The forum has been active for years it is a learned reaction to what used to be an ongoing problem.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 15:10
Thank you es bih for your perspective on our rationale regarding these topics. As is evident by some of the contrary posts in this thread, political motives are not a reason to unblock a topic. AE may be one of the only sites left that allows ethnicities to participate in discussions on history by actively avoiding traditionally flammable material. This encourages people to discuss interests free of political propaganda as much as possible. That means certain topics are avoided. Not due to loss of words but because these are topics that do not get settled on an internet forum. Maybe not the most popular of decisions, yet one that cuts to the chase and is firmly grounded in experience and common sense. 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 17:58
Originally posted by armenica

Originally posted by es_bih

Furthermore, the topics do not only concern Turkey singularly but other countries as well I do not see where your rationale comes for assuming that Turkey can not be criticized, the purpose of the blacklist is that certain events of which there were more than one participator that cause flame-wars are restricted so that the smooth flow of this forum is not interrupted.
 
But why then not ban the user(s) instead on banning the issue? I can't quite grasp that solution. Admin could simply warn and then block the users in question instead on apply mass-censorship.
 
...and I don't intend to prolong this discussion just in order to re-open this topic. That's up to the forum and admin. I simply think that it's pitty that a "history forum" should be forced to close down such a up-to-date question when the EU talks abuot it, US Congress talks about it, the Jewish organisations in US have started to reconsider their stand in regard to this question etc. But if you think that it's nothing but head ache, then it's entirely your call.
 
Cheers!
 
 
The last time someone like you posted the same question it turned into a flame war while we were trying to explain the reasons.
I also find your insinuations that the underlying cause is pro Turk bias insulting.
 
 
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 01:58
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by armenica

Originally posted by es_bih

Furthermore, the topics do not only concern Turkey singularly but other countries as well I do not see where your rationale comes for assuming that Turkey can not be criticized, the purpose of the blacklist is that certain events of which there were more than one participator that cause flame-wars are restricted so that the smooth flow of this forum is not interrupted.
 
But why then not ban the user(s) instead on banning the issue? I can't quite grasp that solution. Admin could simply warn and then block the users in question instead on apply mass-censorship.
 
...and I don't intend to prolong this discussion just in order to re-open this topic. That's up to the forum and admin. I simply think that it's pitty that a "history forum" should be forced to close down such a up-to-date question when the EU talks abuot it, US Congress talks about it, the Jewish organisations in US have started to reconsider their stand in regard to this question etc. But if you think that it's nothing but head ache, then it's entirely your call.
 
Cheers!
 
 
The last time someone like you posted the same question it turned into a flame war while we were trying to explain the reasons.
I also find your insinuations that the underlying cause is pro Turk bias insulting.
 


Thank you for proofing me wrong! The note I wrote was not about admin or the forum being bias, but how Turkish-related topics tend to end up being blocked due to insults. That interpreteation is your's only.

As goes for the rest I firmly stand by my opinoin that banning a topic, and specially such an issue, is completely wrong way of addressing forum rules.
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  Quote Balaam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 03:11
Originally posted by armenica

Well, the topic is being discussed in 3-4 other forums that I'm member of
 
 
 
Well your more than welcome to continue discussions there but if you feel you want to see discussions about it here you could do a simple search for topics about it.
 
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 12:56
Supporting just means supporting the claim for genocide. In other words, agreeing it. It's just a simple thing, not meant for people to say it was good or not (whatever the circumstances, the outcome was bad).

The purpose was just to get an idea about what people feel on the issue, without starting up 'a flame war'.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 19:41
On some subjects those who write are just like lemmings. You can tell them,

If you keep going that way, you will get into flame wars.
No we won't!
Yes you will!
And it starts all over again.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 07:07
I agree - let's just stay away from it. That's what I do, because every time I even get into a non-blacklisted topic about Turkish-related topics, it becomes swamped with Turanists and suchlike.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 14:13
I'm a little puzzled as to why 'immigration into the USA' is blacklisted. I don't see how US history can really be properly covered without intrducing immigration.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 14:25
That was decided over one year ago. The debates over Mexican/American walls and congress' wrangling over illegal immigrants caused an uproar among members here. Since this issue is mostly specific to that I will rewrite the blacklist with a qualifier. Otherwise, immigration as a whole to the US will, most likely, not create too much flaming amoung members.  
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 17:45
     Seko, I just have a simple inquiry about this whole thing. I don't care if we can talk about the topic or not on the forum (although I'm not in favor of a blacklist), as it gets very redundant disproving the same lies and propaganda over and over. I think any reasonable person who has researched the topic on their own will see what really happened.

     My main concern is why, on the blacklist, Armenian Genocide has quotations around it? That is a very subtle way of getting a particular message across. I highly doubt anyone would write Jewish Holocaust in quotes without being branded as a racist (which probably wouldn't be far from the truth). And its not like its a mistake, as none of the other blacklisted topics have quotations around them. I just want to know why there are quotes around an event which was confirmed to have happened by, among thousands of other scholars, the man who invented the term genocide, Dr. Raphael Lemkin.

     Putting quotes around the name of the event, as well as banning discussion on the topic (not that I care to rehash the discussion) gives the idea to a neutral, not-in-the-know individual that there seems to be two sides to the event in question, and that it might not be anything more than a premature accusation, which is completely the opposite of what the majority of historians around the world say. This includes the man who invented the concept of genocide, as well as the International Association of Genocide Scholars, as well as many other internationally-renown institutions.


     It would be no different if we banned discussion of the Jewish Holocaust, and made a blacklist where the event was written in quotes, all because a few holocaust deniers cannot control their fingers.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 18:09
A.S., the quotations are there as a middle ground in this debate. Both the term genocide and indications of it being alleged are represented in "Armenian Genocide". This way both sides of the arguement know that the debate is over legitimacy. Your arguement is represented in your post. Now a counter arguement could very well be represented from someone else's post. Then this discussion would be spiraling onward, which at the end of the day, will be a long winded thread that proves both sides had alot to say. Don't we already know this? Is this really news at All Empires or do we need more debates inorder to pound it into eachothers' heads that both sides will not agree in this type of format? 
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 20:02
Originally posted by Seko

Now a counter arguement could very well be represented from someone else's post. Then this discussion would be spiraling onward, which at the end of the day, will be a long winded thread that proves both sides had alot to say.



     Yes, but the counter-arguments are not based on anything that has been agreed upon by academia, in fact they say the complete opposite of what has been agreed upon by every major academic circle. Thats my whole point. Just because someone presents a view that is the complete opposite of what every historical circle says doesn't mean that it has to be represented as a possible fact. As I said, you don't see the viewpoint of Jewish Holocaust deniers represented on a history website by putting the name of the event in quotations, so how is this any different?



Originally posted by Seko

Both the term genocide and indications of it being alleged are represented in "Armenian Genocide"


     Its not being "alleged" by anybody. The man who invented the term genocide said that what happened to the Armenians was a fundamental example of genocide. If you do not accept his basic examples of genocide, then by default, you are denying his definition of genocide, which is adopted by every single institution that has to do with international law, including the United Nations. By this rationale, we can openly question whether the Jewish Holocaust took place, contrary to what every academic institutions says, all because some loud neo-Nazis and political opportunists have a different point of view from the world. Do you see the problem here?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-Sep-2007 at 20:21
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 21:10
Looks like you're itchin to have an arguement right here and now A.S. Not only are you questioning the veracity of our rules regarding blacklisted topics but you're actually getting yourself involved in the blacklisted discussion in the process of making your arguement. I assume you can try to continue as you are doing knowing fully well that our policies will not change and I can remind you that this topic is not for discussion. Since you would be responsible for the consequences in continuing to challenge the blacklist policy then I would have to be responsible to enforce our policy. It's your choice.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 21:43
Originally posted by Seko

That was decided over one year ago. The debates over Mexican/American walls and congress' wrangling over illegal immigrants caused an uproar among members here. Since this issue is mostly specific to that I will rewrite the blacklist with a qualifier. Otherwise, immigration as a whole to the US will, most likely, not create too much flaming amoung members.  
 
 
Jesus!
 
I was thinking in opening a thread to discuss if walls are really practical or not to prevent migrations. Remember that the Chinese Wall, the Adrian Wall, the Berlin Wall and many other barriers simply didn't work. So, if I include the Jesuralem and the Tortilla walls in there the topic will be banned?
 
I hope not.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 21-Sep-2007 at 21:45
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:00
If we are to stay "on topic" and discuss history then I hope so.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:01
No, the topic would be closed if you were to solely discuss the "Tortilla" walls.
 
Folks is this really news to some of you long time members? I don't think so. Shall we go back to the days of flame wars where the same old arguements, amidst a few new ones, flourish in AE once again? If that is a majority opinion then I am all ears. I would then take each blacklisted title and have the staff vote on either maintaining or removing the blacklist. I would not do this for the sake of a few but with the consent of most AE members that wish to have this policy re-evaluated.


Edited by Seko - 21-Sep-2007 at 22:03
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