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A question regarding what i can post.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A question regarding what i can post.
    Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:07
Originally posted by Seko

Looks like you're itchin to have an arguement right here and now A.S. Not only are you questioning the veracity of our rules regarding blacklisted topics but you're actually getting yourself involved in the blacklisted discussion in the process of making your arguement. I assume you can try to continue as you are doing knowing fully well that our policies will not change and I can remind you that this topic is not for discussion. Since you would be responsible for the consequences in continuing to challenge the blacklist policy then I would have to be responsible to enforce our policy. It's your choice.


     Seko, I have no intention of convincing you to take anything off the blacklist, as I already said I don't care whether we can discuss this issue or not on these forums. My only point of contention is the use of quotations to refer to the event, which is unjustified for the reasons that I gave. I'll say it again, you don't see the viewpoint of Jewish Holocaust deniers represented on a history website by putting the name of the event in quotations, so how is this any different?

     We might as well put Jewish Holocaust in quotes, just because there is a minority of people who believe it didn't happen. This is the root of what I'm trying to tell you.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:16
I like having rules where arguments can be ended quickly. Nobody learns anything from topics that cause abuse rather than sharing. 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:20
Thanks for the clarification ArmenianSurvival. I knew what you meant but you kept insisting that this is an agreed upon policy (armenian genocide), though it is sometimes debated in international circles by historians and lobbied by politicians, it is in quotes becasue it has been argueably denied by those who's ancestors are being accused. They were tragic events by which the policy of 'genocide' is either refuted or accepted. Since these discussions have occurred many times in AE and ended up in disagreements from both sides nothing gets resolved. I know you are sensitve to this topic as are many other members of various stripes. I cannot take it upon myself to disavow one arguement for the sake of another.
 
Even though, earlier in this thread, a point was raised about Immigration in the USA I did see that it was not clarified properly. That is why I revised the wording to make it as specific as possible and still allow discussions not relating to the problematic history we have had pertaining to that topic. Yet in my haste I may still be wrong by rewording it to Illegal Immigration into the USA (conflicts over Mexican/American relations). If a good counter arguement is raised in by the staff over this change then I would take that into consideration and possibly revert to the more general and strict measure of the original.


Edited by Seko - 21-Sep-2007 at 22:24
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2007 at 17:29
A.S. This is your second identical thread. The first one was moved to the archives (this one is hidden).
 
The blacklist has not been open to further debate. I reminded you once that you will be paying the consequences for insisting that we discuss the blacklist and for trying to make a case by discussing the blacklisted subject in the process. Your next attempt will result in a warning! 


Edited by Seko - 22-Sep-2007 at 17:37
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2007 at 18:31
Originally posted by Seko

A.S. Your this is your second identical thread. The first one was moved.


     Oh okay, I was wondering why my post disappeared. No one said anything so I didn't know.



Originally posted by Seko

The blacklist has not been open to further debate. I reminded you once that you will be paying the consequences for insisting that we discuss the blacklist and for trying to make a case by discussing the blacklisted subject in the process. Your next attempt will result in a warning!



     My only concern was the use of quotes to refer to a specific item on the blacklist, not the blacklist itself, nor the topic itself. Unfortunately it was impossible for me to explain my case without referring to the topic, since your justification for putting it in quotes is directly related to the topic as well.

     I don't have a bone to pick with you or anything like that, Seko. My only point is that you should use the same terminology that the majority of international organizations and historians use (whatever that terminology might be). After all, this is a history website.

     That is all from my end. Until next time Smile
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 03:17
Originally posted by Seko

They were tragic events by which the policy of 'genocide' is either refuted or accepted. Since these discussions have occurred many times in AE and ended up in disagreements from both sides nothing gets resolved. I know you are sensitve to this topic as are many other members of various stripes. I cannot take it upon myself to disavow one arguement for the sake of another.
 
??! Sorry, but with all do respect, since when did admin become arbitrary judge in similar historic discussions? If admin do not poses the historical facts or knowledge in the issue than I can't see how he/she can even interfer.
 
Personally, I think that if you're professional about it and sincere in the matter, you should at least listen to the arguments put forward, examine them and build your own opinion about the question. That's what academic research and dicussions is about, right?
 
I have said it before and I repeat it again: this forum is taking the easy way out, yielding to the terrorising of the Turkish individuals who's sole purpose is to put a stop for similar discussions which risk to bring the truth to persons (such as yourself) who are unaware about the details and the facts around the Armenian Question.
 
Admin should keep the forum clean of individuals who mess up the place, not censorship of the discussed subjects. The Turksih state has the article 301 for silencing this kind of questions and your decision to shut this discussion up is not far away from that.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:16
Wow! Your hostility knows know bounds armenica. You prejudge me by assuming I do not posess enough facts about this issue. You question my integrity as an admin. You then ask me to listen to your arguement when historically AE has had numerous threads on this issue in the past. That is not our fault for coming late to the party. You also label our Turkish members as using 'terrorising' methods. Then you go onto more of your poor anti-Turkish rhetoric as if that will help your case. Most of all you are engaging in blacklisted discussions while trying to make your arguement. Being that their are numerous violations here you are officially warned.
 
If anyone else cares to join in on this discussion and insuuate groundless accusations based on wishful thinking then feel free to face the consequences.
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:24

Well, democracy is good thing, but autocracy is even better as long as you sit on the high end of the power.

I have now been "officially warned for violating the power of the staff"!!!
 
Nice. Thanks again to Seko for proofing my point. You couldn't have done it better. Shut down everyone and evrything that wishes to talk about the Armenian genocide and have the nerves to claim that this forum is not biased.
 
One more thing since this might as well be the last thing I write before the regime executes me: I wasn't writing anything anyhow, so please refresh my memory: you warn me for what?
 
It's allways nice when people do your work and proof the very thing that you're trying to stipulate. You really should reconsider the judgement and the role of the admin personal in this forum...
 
PS. I still stand by my view and it will take much much more than a warning and threathening to suspend me in aforum to make me forget about my principles and most important of all defending the truth.
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:38
Originally posted by Seko

Wow! Your hostility knows know bounds armenica. You prejudge me by assuming I do not posess enough facts about this issue. You question my integrity as an admin. You then ask me to listen to your arguement when historically AE has had numerous threads on this issue in the past. That is not our fault for coming late to the party. You also label our Turkish members as using 'terrorising' methods. Then you go onto more of your poor anti-Turkish rhetoric as if that will help your case. Most of all you are engaging in blacklisted discussions while trying to make your arguement. Being that their are numerous violations here you are officially warned.
 
If anyone else cares to join in on this discussion and insuuate groundless accusations based on wishful thinking then feel free to face the consequences.
 
I was in all those threads. Where were you?! And if they're around then you can take a look and see my posts and if you find one insulting then I'll yield.
 
Secondly, there is nothing "anti-Turkish" in my posts other then what I see going on here. When you observe that 5-6 of 10 blacklisted threads have something to do with Turkey, then my assumption is based on observation, not "groundless" accusation.
 
Anf finally, next time you warn someone, make sure they have something to lose. If this is the way you conduct in this forum, then there is no space for reasoning here. For your own sake I hope that there are other admins who can (or dare) to question this kind of dictatorship and censorship.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:47
Originally posted by armenica

Nice. Thanks again to Seko for proofing my point. You couldn't have done it better. Shut down everyone and evrything that wishes to talk about the Armenian genocide and have the nerves to claim that this forum is not biased.
 
Well, as you well know, the Armenian genocide has been blacklisted for a reason here at AE.  No one can ever talk in a civilized manner about it.  If someone starts a civilized discussion, it always degenerates from there into a nasty flamewar. 
 
The same thing happens every single time the topic is brougt up.  No one is ever going to be convinced that the other side is right.  They do not care; all they care about is asserting their point over the other person's point.  It is not even a matter of having an honest discussion with the hope of someone eventually changing their mind because good evidence was provided.
 
This is not to belittle the Armenian genocide by any means.  However, the "discussions" on the topic have become so absurd and predictable that it has become a parody of itself.  Sensible people at AE just roll their eyes, sigh, and move on to a more interesting topic.  Can you take part in discussions that that do not have to do with Armenia or the genocide?  If you cannot or will not, I think a certain agenda has been revealed other than discussing history for the purpose of enjoying history.  Do yourself and the serious topic of genocide a favor and let it be for now.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 23-Sep-2007 at 12:50
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  Quote armenica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:04
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by armenica

Nice. Thanks again to Seko for proofing my point. You couldn't have done it better. Shut down everyone and evrything that wishes to talk about the Armenian genocide and have the nerves to claim that this forum is not biased.
 
Well, as you well know, the Armenian genocide has been blacklisted for a reason here at AE.  No one can ever talk in a civilized manner about it.  If someone starts a civilized discussion, it always degenerates from there into a nasty flamewar. 
 
The same thing happens every single time the topic is brougt up.  No one is ever going to be convinced that the other side is right.  They do not care; all they care about is asserting their point over the other person's point.  It is not even a matter of having an honest discussion with the hope of someone eventually changing their mind because good evidence was provided.
 
This is not to belittle the Armenian genocide by any means.  However, the "discussions" on the topic have become so absurd and predictable that it has become a parody of itself.  Sensible people at AE just roll their eyes, sigh, and move on to a more interesting topic.  Can you take part in discussions that that do not have to do with Armenia or the genocide?  If you cannot or will not, I think a certain agenda has been revealed other than discussing history for the purpose of enjoying history.  Do yourself and the serious topic of genocide a favor and let it be for now.
 
Much obliged for the explanation, eventhough that I knew a better portion of it already. But please do pay attention to what I have written in all my posts in this thread: I DO know and understand the extra load for admin when this kind of issues are discussed (and derailed). But at the same time I feel that blacklisting the trouble makers is the answer not mass punishing all and blacklisting the thread, specially something as important as the Armenian Genocide.
 
As for the rest, I have been working with the Armenian history since 1998, reading about the Armenian history in particular but also the history of region i.e. Persia, Middle East, Balkans, Asia Minor, Caucasus, the Ottoman Empire and so on. Now I'm studying on university for my M.Sc. in history and natyrally find the subject interesting, but nevertheless my "expertise" (I'm in no way expert compared to the real ones) is about the Armenian history and the Armenian Genocide in particular. Of that simple reason I find this topic closest to my heart and those small amounts of time beside work and study that I find I put in these discussion (presenting facts and arguments).
 
Well, that's quite the whole thing. I reacted upon the explanation about why such a topic is banned from this forum. And since I know for fact (from our own university library) that Turkish students destroy all books and discussion regrading the Armenian genocide, this banning seemed exactly the same only this time it's in cyber space.
 
You must not allow the discussion about the Armenian Genocide just die becuase there are some rotten eggs who terrorise the ones who sincerely want to discuss the matter in a civilised manner. I for one, don't think that it's a dignified way to honor the memory of all men, women and children who died in those massacres. It's history. It's documented and it sure belongs in this forum.
 
Cheers,
 
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:20
Originally posted by armenica

Of that simple reason I find this topic closest to my heart and those small amounts of time beside work and study that I find I put in these discussion (presenting facts and arguments).
 
This good and I am glad that you have such a heart for the topic.  However, as I said above, nothing will not convince the other side of your point.  The types who come into Armenian genocide threads and turn it into a flamewar do not care about facts.  All they care about is trumpeting there opinion, whether it be denying the event took place or something else, over that of everyone else.  Nothing constructive ever happens and your good intentions are wasted on deaf ears or blind eyes.
 
Are there other topics apart from Armenia and genocide that you are interested in?  As for me, I'd be glad to have you take part in an objective manner in my Byzantine or Ottoman topics.  I have started a few topics on the Ottoman Turks and they have never degenerated into flamewars or been closed by the moderators.  People might have come in and posted something witty for the sake of starting a fight, but everyone else usually ignores them and they go away. 
 
Now it is possible that these types ignore my threads because they cannot figure out a way to start a fight that deals with premodern Turkey or the Balkans.  In other words, they are trolls who sit there and look for keywords on the search engine that have to do with Turks or the genocide and then post one witty thing in each hoping to start a fight.  But, as you have seen, they are usually caught and either warned or banned.
 
Originally posted by armenica

You must not allow the discussion about the Armenian Genocide just die becuase there are some rotten eggs who terrorise the ones who sincerely want to discuss the matter in a civilised manner. I for one, don't think that it's a dignified way to honor the memory of all men, women and children who died in those massacres. It's history. It's documented and it sure belongs in this forum.
 
 
Blacklisting the topic does not make the issue die.  On the contrary, it prevents historical quacks and idiots from spreading their filth over the issue any further, and prevents people like yourself who have the issue close to your heart from being flamed and provoked at AE.
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:31
Why is it that those who insist on having us change our rules are always pushing for their own agenda? Did you once see me break our rules in this discussion? Did I insinuate anything against Armenian members like you, armenica, unfavorably have done against Turks? A few pages ago you were given the staff's line of reasoning. Just recently you were formally warned. Now you have ignored that and insist that we allow this blacklisted discussion to continue. You have violated the CoC by spreading your politics in the process. I have been patient with your insults against our policies and me. Instead of leaving your disgruntled voice regarding the blacklist you have somehow managed to acuse me directly in your childish antics. I am the one upholding the CoC where you are simply violating it. With all do respect to your background in academia and your personal history that you so willlingly share here, this is not a thread to discuss your grievance about your people or any about our staff (me included). Since you continued your barrage of accusations, then unfortunately, it has led to your eventual ban from this forum.

Edited by Seko - 23-Sep-2007 at 13:47
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 16:49
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Blacklisting the topic does not make the issue die.  On the contrary, it prevents historical quacks and idiots from spreading their filth over the issue any further


     This is not the impression one gets when one looks at the blacklist and sees the name of the event in quotes, which to any reasonable person, is just a way of implying that it didn't really happen, or might not have happened.

     We need to look at what terminology the majority of historians and international institutions use to refer to this event, and use that term on the blacklist. This is a history website. Putting quotes around it can be described in many negative ways, the least negative of which is that its grossly inaccurate (at least according to the world of historians and scholars, which is the only thing that should carry any weight in a history forum).

     I said in my previous post that I will say no more in this thread, but I was not banking on my comments being ignored. But the moderators' job is not an easy one, and I will continue to stay optimistic that my specific points will be answered by our hard-working moderating staff.
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 15:24

People against the genocide would like it to be renamed 'the false armenian genocide' or something along the lines of that. Let's just leave it as it is and stop arguing as it clearly isn't going to change. Should we just close this thread?



Edited by aslanlar - 24-Sep-2007 at 15:26
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