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Turks, mamluks and arabs

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks, mamluks and arabs
    Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 14:10
To make a long story short:
Why did the arabs hire turks as soldiers, which later became mamluks?
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 15:09
because they were better horsemen and warriors

and they didn't hire mamelukes they bought them
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:33
buying central asian mercenary's began much earlyer then mamelukes, tulunids for example, i heard another short lived dynasty in egypt like the tulunids. 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:46

Are there any documents or historic books written by Arabs regarding why they bought over so mant Turks? at one stage I heard the population was so large they had special cities to accomadate them and this was during the Abbasid era. And the Kipchaks made dictionaries and how to learn Turkic books for the Arabs. Or another example, Kashgarli Mahmud in his Divan-i-Lugati Turk presented the encyclopedia on Turks to the Caliph so they could learn about each other.

What was the cause of this relationship between Arabs and Turks?

Edited by Bulldog - 04-Jun-2007 at 16:49
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 23:33
According to the Koran, Arabs should not fight other Muslims. So, when they needed someone to attack Muslims, they hired the pagan (at first) Turkic nomads.  
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 01:41
ha when the arabs conquered those lands they were not yet muslim but stil pagan
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 02:53
Originally posted by konstantinius

According to the Koran, Arabs should not fight other Muslims. So, when they needed someone to attack Muslims, they hired the pagan (at first) Turkic nomads.  
But when they start to hire Turkic warriors,they were already conquered all Muslim area.They used Turks to fight Christians,they made a attack line from Turkic warriors between Bryzantine-Arab borders and named it "Avasım".They also paid money to Turks who married with a Turk girl(so their kid will be a Turk),to raise new Turkic warriors.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 18:27
Hello to you all
 
The reasons for why Turks became prominent are complex and long but one thing that you must be sure of is that Turks were not better fighters than Arabs for the simple reason of what the arab have conqured and what the Turks have conquered.
 
Ummayyads believed in Arab supremecy and throughout their history they bluntly refused to hire regulars that were not Arabs except in the navy which was heavily dependent on the Copts and that worked well for them, not only they quenched all the rebellion during 40 years of civil war, but they conquered all the lands from Toulous to Kashi or Kashghar, the heartland of the Turks. The Abbasids who overthrough the Umayyads were dependent on Persians and shiite Arabs for their support though the Bulk of their Army was Arab the civil service and court officials were not Arabs but Persians. The Persians started a covert campaign in Al-Mansur's reign to make recruitment more open especilly to Persians but the guy was very watchful and he did not make this happen in a widespread manner. However in the reign of his son the Barmicides came and they were keen to make Persians supreme. After filling the top ranks with Persians they stopped resourting to Arab tribes who until then had to train their subjects and Mawali, non arabs in allegiance with a certain tribe, and had to send a fixed number every year to serve in the military. The tribes which natuarally benifited financially from this system expressed resentment and even rebelled only to be defeated. The Army by the time of Al-Rashid was a professional army doing recruitment in a manner similar to the old Roman Army without preferring certain groups. Arabs continued to be the bulk of the Army but the fighting was done by Persian units and when the civil war between Al-Amin and Al-Mamun most of the troops were either Persian or Arab with a growing turkish presence despite the commanders being mostly Arab.
 
After Al-Mamun's victory he started diversifying more and more, he correctly predicted that Persians will revolt (Babak Khorramdin) and the Arabs will do the same (Yemen, shiite etc) so in an effort to make the Army more loyal and professional and less ethnically homogeneous he recruited from all sides of the empire and disbanded most Arab units and perminanlty cancelled the old system. he also recruited men from old nble houses from conquered lands, like Afshin, to command posts. the arab response for this was unfortunate, they simply refused to serve in the military both officers and commanders, withdrew from public life and some tribes even returned to the desert in protest. When Al-Mutasim things finally reached to their climax. The guy was illiterate, the first illiterate ruler of Islam, and he know little Arabic. His guards and units were all turks from his mother's kin. When he came he faced over 10 different rebellions and since convinving the Arabs to fight was in vein and Persians were deserting for Babak he started his recruitment of Ghulams. They were good fighters, as good as Arabs, and they had blind loyalty to their leaders. Afshain liked them depite being Persian and In his reign the entire Army was to became based on the turkish race and Arab representation was deminished to a bare minimum. Soon afterwords The Abbasids were under a military dictatorship run by commanders of the Army like Wasif and Bagha and they failed to protect the state. About the year 320 AH the Abbasid were at the lowest they can get. Byzantines ravaged through the lands, Persia was under various independent principalities and invaders came and went without much resistance.
 
Al-Jassas
 
 
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 13:21
They were obviously better soldiers. Because of this turks fought also in byzantine , Rus, Indian and chineese armies. They were tje elegant sections in abbasids, fatimids, buyids armies. And the turks were the major power which fought against christians more than 1000 years. But this comment doesnt make arabs as bad warriors. Arabs and Berbers were known for their millitary abilities. But they saw a nation with full of millitarism and they hired it for their ambitions. Like the other states at that era. 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 13:48

Hello Evrenosgazi

I did not say Turks were bad fighters or Arabs were better. I just explained why the Abbasids chose Turks over Arabs, i was politics. Turks were largely non muslim at that time or at least nominally so. They know little Arabic and the only thing they were interested in was money. The Arabs on the other hand have been restless in their opposition to the measures taken by the Abbasids turning the country more and more to the persian way. By the time of Mamun Arabs were only military commanders. The Beauracracy was of Persian or Greek origin and Arabs were gradually given lower positions there. This with the existance of several strong parties that wanted to retrn the glory of the Arabs were the only reason why they were expelled from the Army during Al-Mutasim's reign. The conspiracy of Afshin had already resulted in the disbanding of Persian units and By the caliphate of Al-Wathiq, Turks were the Rank-and-file of the military, administration was still in the hands of the Persians and the Arabs had nothing. They rebelled without coordination and by the time of Al-Muqtadir, petty Arab princedoms in syria, Armenia, the caucasus and Arabia were far away from the control of the caliphate.
 
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 21:30
if you are going to calculate who has conquered what of who has the most experiance

The Turks still win no conest LOL
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by xi_tujue

if you are going to calculate who has conquered what of who has the most experiance

The Turks still win no conest LOL
oh comon hey, lets be sirious here.

no "sidik yarismasi" please :)
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 00:21
Well lets see
 
In 627, only Madinah and vicinity, Area 2500 Km, was controlled by Muslim Arabs.
 
In 715: All the lands from Kashi to Lisbon (8000 Km) and from Makhachakla to Aden (3000 Km) was under one continuous centralized Empire. All was conquered by the Arabs. I am sorry fact is fact.
 
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 05:29
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by xi_tujue

if you are going to calculate who has conquered what of who has the most experiance

The Turks still win no conest LOL
oh comon hey, lets be sirious here.

no "sidik yarismasi" please :)



yeah but who started it Cry


conquering independent small tribes isn't conquest its unification al jassas
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 06:07
Well lets see again
 
Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Eastern anatolia: All were important provices of Byzantium.
 
The Entire Sassanid Empire.
 
The Kingdom of Sind
 
Byzantine Provinces of Tripolitania, Egypt and Carthage.
 
All the kingdoms of Transoxania (Shash, Fergana, Sogdia, Uyghur Chinese vassals etc).
 
And finally the 300 year old Goth Kingdom of Spain.
 
I do not think that all these were tribes do you?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 08:56
Al-Jassas is right, it wasn't that the Arabs were bad fighters or that the Turks were better fighters. During the 10th century the Khalifate under the Abbasid dynasty began weakening as individual Khalifahs began to continue the later Umayyad practice of distributing day to day governmental duties to viziers, and sultans who ran the government for the Khalifah. The Khalifate of the Righteously guided sucessors was a more localized one, where the Khalifah was not a monarch, nor a superrior, he was the princeps(first among equals), and carried the state through his own actions, and his own popularity. However, after the first Fitnah the office took a monarchical style adapting the culture of Byzantium, and Persia in ideology. By the time it moved to Baghdad it was supported largerly by the Malawi, the non-Arab converts who were employed in government, and carried Islamic culture to new heights by fusing earlier traditions with the new emerging Islamic identity. Arts flourished, but the Khalifah's powerbase diminished, he induldged in the goods of the Persian, and Byzantine high society with lavish palaces, and days spent indulging in extravagance, naturally this gave way to a buearacracy that was not headed by the Khalifh more and more, but by the Grand Vizier.
 
The Abassids couldn't trust to retain their power by trusting either the Grand viziers or the old guard, the Turkic tribes provided them with a ally that would fight for them, and was not affected by previous events, they did not know the corruption yet at least.
 
However, by the time of Alp Arslan the Khalifah's power had been long diminished to a figurative head of state position.
 
In the end the Turkic soldiers just like the Malawi before them immersed in the Islamic society, and state. We see a parallel with the Germanic tribes who went through immense Romanization while acting as Roman agents, and eventually becoming Romans in the sense of being governors as well.
 
 
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 13:50
Ofcourse arabs were good fighters. They all conquered the middle east, central asia and meditrenian by their swords. Their valour is accepted by all of the recent kingdoms. But we know that all nations have a tendency toward something like war, commerce, art etc.. But the turks were totally appropriate for war. Their lifestyle was fighting. Because of this they consisted a important portion at the medieval armies. A simple example can explain this. We know that african slaves were much more in number at the eygptian armies. But always the eygptians bought turkish slaves. They were the elite of the army. Again the Buyids(Deylemis) were warlike people of northwestern Iran, they even had turkish crops. We cant say that only the turks were the  available slaves for the army.  The arabs used africans, Iranians, Armenians, Georgians, Indians, Western people, Berbers for their armies. But like Al Cahiz`s words Turks were the best, the much respected for their fighting abilities.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 00:38
You have to be careful about your time periods as well. As a country becomes old and peaceful, their troops become a poorer quality. They have less experience, have more interest in the finer things in life. Comparing whether Arabs or Turks are more martial is pointless, comparing the lifestyles of particular groups at particular points in time has more credibility though.
 
Turks were a good choice for the late Abbasids for the same reason Germans were a good choice for the late western Romans, and why the modern US army is predominantly from the South or Arabs served in both Byzantine and Persian armies. At some points in time certain groups prefer army life to other groups. If one group of people have power for too long, they cease to wish to fight, and the armies that they previously supported need to be staffed by others.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 05:09
No one country is alwasy great at martial efforts. Once two legions held Britain, then in WWII two British divisions captured 3 italian armies at Tobruk.
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 15:20
Originally posted by Sparten

No one country is alwasy great at martial efforts. Once two legions held Britain, then in WWII two British divisions captured 3 italian armies at Tobruk.
Yes I am with you in your opinion. But we are talking about medieval times . My comments are for that time interval
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