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Mongol invasion to Indonesia
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Sarmat View Drop Down
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongol invasion to Indonesia
    Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 14:30

There is a discussion on the Mongol invasion to Japan. Is any one interested in discussing Mongols' expedition to Indonesia and the reasons of its failure?



Edited by Sarmat12 - 05-Jun-2007 at 23:14
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:19
Lol, it was another typhoon...  Confused


1292-1293:  Kublai Khan sent 1000 ships to attack Java. Hit by a typhoon, and refused permission to land in Champa, the fleet arrived enfeebled. Vijaya, the ruler of Majapahit, joined the Mongols to attack Kediri, and then launched a surprise attack on the Mongols, who withdrew.

Source:  http://maritimeasia.ws/topic/chronology.html


The quote above actually cites the (german) website immediately below:


1281

Muslims from Jambi send an embassy to Kublai Khan.


1289

Kublai Khan sends messengers to Singhasari to demand tribute; Kertanegara slashes their faces and sends them home.


1292

Kublai Khan prepares invasion fleet of 1000 ships to take Java.

November Mongol fleet leaves for Java; lands at Tuban.

Majapahit was one of the few countries of that time to defeat a Mongol invasion, along with Japan and Egypt. However, the Mongol fleet was hit by a typhoon along the way, and was refused permission to land in Champa (in today's Vietnam) to take on supplies. By the time the fleet reached Tuban, the army was sickened and weak.


1293

Vijaya forms alliance with Mongol forces against remainder of Singhasari in Kediri, led by Jayakatwang.

March Combined force of Mongol/Chinese soldiers and Majapahit takes Kediri.

Vijaya returns to Trowulan, then attacks Mongols in a surprise attack. Mongols retreat and leave Java.

Source:  http://home.iae.nl/users/arcengel/Indonesia/100.htm


1000 ships, so that's approximately 1/4 the size of the fleet sent on the second invasion of Japan, which numbered about 140,000 men transported by about 4400 ships.



Edited by TranHungDao - 03-Jun-2007 at 15:22
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:38
[QUOTE=TranHungDao] Lol, it was another typhoon...  Confused

[quote]
 
Looks like that
      
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 21:08
Ermh Confused

The mongol army landed in Java and defeated the Javanese army. The mongols had the king replaced with one who was expected to me far more servile to the mongols. The Javanese nobility subsequently invited all the mongol leaders to a banquet, it was trickery and the mongol leaders were masacared*.


*I wonder if this gave inspiration to "the night of long knifes"?
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 00:35
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Ermh Confused
The mongol army landed in Java and defeated the Javanese army. The mongols had the king replaced with one who was expected to me far more servile to the mongols. The Javanese nobility subsequently invited all the mongol leaders to a banquet, it was trickery and the mongol leaders were masacared*.


I'm vaguely familiar with this version of events.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 13:28
what a bad luck that is! Another typhoon problem happened to Mongols in Java as in Japan. Mmm..interesting and sad story...
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:54
You know what they say:  A typhoon a day, keeps the Mongols away! Tongue
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 17:24
Originally posted by TranHungDao

You know what they say:  A typhoon a day, keeps the Mongols away! Tongue
 
 
 
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 12:57

Depends... are we talking about Indonesia in terms of modern Indonesia that we know today? If so, it will be tough invasion. Climate is not ideal for Mongolian horses, it's brutally hot compared to Mongol, and Mongolian calvary charge and fast mobility is meaningless in jungles and rainforests. Transportation, communication, supply lines would be stretched and divided by water that would fatally weaken the Mongolians. 

Heck, why would Mongolians go for Indonesia in the first place? Nothing valuable's in there. They might as well go for China or Persian wealth.
 
     
   
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 14:31
Originally posted by pekau

Depends... are we talking about Indonesia in terms of modern Indonesia that we know today? If so, it will be tough invasion. Climate is not ideal for Mongolian horses, it's brutally hot compared to Mongol, and Mongolian calvary charge and fast mobility is meaningless in jungles and rainforests. Transportation, communication, supply lines would be stretched and divided by water that would fatally weaken the Mongolians. 

Heck, why would Mongolians go for Indonesia in the first place? Nothing valuable's in there. They might as well go for China or Persian wealth.
 
 
 
Well, Mogols actually invaded Indonesia and it was a very rich country (right in the middle of the trade route between India and China).
 
But your thoughts about the unfriendly climate sound reasonable anyway.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 05-Jun-2007 at 14:31
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:38
Indonesia was rich? Sorry, I need to keep up with Southeasern  Asian history...  but compared to the splendor of  Persia and China? Not so sure about that...
     
   
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:55
Originally posted by pekau

Indonesia was rich? Sorry, I need to keep up with Southeasern  Asian history...  but compared to the splendor of  Persia and China? Not so sure about that...
 
Yeah, it indeed was rich, for example:
 
 
in the 10th century one Circa 903, Muslim writer Ibn Rustah was so impressed with the wealth of Srivijaya's (Srivijaya the strongest kingdom of Indonesia at that time) ruler that he declared one would not hear of a king who was richer, stronger or with more revenue.
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 05-Jun-2007 at 23:11
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:30
Java did a lot of trade with China.  Javanese merchant ships frequented Hong Kong.  Heck, why trade with the Javanese when you can just take it from them!  
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:46
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Java did a lot of trade with China.  Javanese merchant ships frequented Hong Kong.  Heck, why trade with the Javanese when you can just take it from them!  
 
I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 11:22
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.


*tsk, tsk* Disapprove

Keith Taylor claims in the Birth of Vietnam that because Hong Kong was such a bustling place of commerce in the 10th century, or 300 years before the Mongols' worldwide rampage, that China no longer wanted to keep a constantly and fiercely rebellious Vietnam as a province.  When Vietnam was first conquered by the Chinese over 1000 years earlier, Canton though much bigger geographically was far less populated than Vietnam, or rather the Red River Delta of northern Vietnam, and hence the tax base their was much less valuable than that coming from the Vietnamese.  Not so, by the 10th century CE!

I can't recall when exactly, but Hong Kong was sacked by Arab traders, perhaps around the 1200's or 1300's.  They did so because they were pissed at the Chinese merchants for being greedy and conniving.

The Javanese invaded Champa around this time period too because the Chams kept plundering their trade vessels.  The Javanese were not the Cham's only victims. 

The point, I'm trying to make is there was vigorous trade in SE Asia well before the Mongols arrival into the area.

"small fishingman village"?  HA!  Ermm


Edited by TranHungDao - 07-Jun-2007 at 11:28
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Intranetusa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 11:43
Wow, the typhoons must be out to get the Mongols
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:26
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Originally posted by Sarmat12

I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.


*tsk, tsk* Disapprove

Keith Taylor claims in the Birth of Vietnam that because Hong Kong was such a bustling place of commerce in the 10th century, or 300 years before the Mongols' worldwide rampage, that China no longer wanted to keep a constantly and fiercely rebellious Vietnam as a province.  When Vietnam was first conquered by the Chinese over 1000 years earlier, Canton though much bigger geographically was far less populated than Vietnam, or rather the Red River Delta of northern Vietnam, and hence the tax base their was much less valuable than that coming from the Vietnamese.  Not so, by the 10th century CE!

I can't recall when exactly, but Hong Kong was sacked by Arab traders, perhaps around the 1200's or 1300's.  They did so because they were pissed at the Chinese merchants for being greedy and conniving.

The Javanese invaded Champa around this time period too because the Chams kept plundering their trade vessels.  The Javanese were not the Cham's only victims. 

The point, I'm trying to make is there was vigorous trade in SE Asia well before the Mongols arrival into the area.

"small fishingman village"?  HA!  Ermm
 
You are absolutely right. But Hong Kong didn't have that importance. Some parts of the modern Hong Kong served as  trading posts for some time, but Hong Kong like it extists now evolved only after the British had  conquered the region.
 
The most important Chinese ancient trading haven was Guangzhou (Canton). The trade with the Middle East and India and Indonesia was also done via Guangzhou.
 
Check this out:
 
 
The History of Hong Kong in Imperial China began in 214 BC under the Qin Dynasty. The territory remain largely unoccupied until the end of the Qing Dynasty when Imperial China lost the region to the British Colony in the 1800s.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:09
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:31
 TO TranHungDao
 
I think you indeed confused Hong-Kong with Guangzhou:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou#History
 
Arab and Persian pirates sacked Guangzhou (known to them as Sin-Kalan) in AD 758, according to a local Guangzhou government report on October 30, 758, which corresponded to the day of Guisi (癸巳) of the ninth lunar month in the first year of the Qianyuan era of Emperor Suzong of the Tang Dynasty.[1][2][3]


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jun-2007 at 13:34
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Posts: 277 		  Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I think you indeed confused Hong-Kong with Guangzhou:

I think you're right! LOL

However, everything else still holds if you replace "Hong Kong" with "Canton".  Disapprove


Edited by TranHungDao - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:33
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:34
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Originally posted by Sarmat12

I think you indeed confused Hong-Kong with Guangzhou:

I think you're right! LOL

However, everything else still holds if you replace "Hong Kong" with "Canton".  Disapprove
 
 
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