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Creation and expansion of pagan Bulgaria VII-IXc.

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Liudovik_Nemski View Drop Down
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation and expansion of pagan Bulgaria VII-IXc.
    Posted: 25-May-2007 at 05:22
After the first Bulgarian state was created by Kanasubigi Asparuh in 680-681 the situation was quite worrying considering that it had strong hostile neighbours near every border-avars to the west,Eastern Roman empire to the south and the khazars to the east on the Dnieper border which had already conquered Old great Bulgaria and made Kubrat's sons separate with a part of the nation.

Asparuh fell in a battle with the Khazars on the Dnieper border and his son Tervel took power.The eastern roman empire continued to pay tax every year which it did since the treaty with which it recognised the creation of Danube Bulgaria.During Tervel's reign the state didn't have any serious expansion except the region Zagore(shown in bright yellow) which Justinian II gave to Tervel for helping him cease the throne in Constantinople.He later tried to retake the region but was defeated,also Tervel sent major forces which destroyed a huge portion of the arabs at land in 717 when they sieged Constantinople and hoped later to continue in Europe.

The later period in which ruled Kormesii and Sevar was mostly peaceful but since the rule of Vineh a period of crisis started.In Bulgaria there were three royal families-Dulo(the leaders until now were all from it),Vokil and Ugain and each one of them wanted to place a person as a leader of the state.They also had different views in the foreign politics-the house of Vokil wanted peace with the eastern roman empire,while Dulo and Ugain demanded war to be declared and new lands be taken.There are many rulers during this period and from different houses,the eastern roman empire tried to destroy the state several times but always failed.
At the time of Telerig and Kardam the state started to exit the period of civil war between the factions and reorganised itself.

After Kardam Krum(803-814) rose to power,he wasn't from any faction but from the pannonian Bulgars.He started the centralisation of the state.In these times the avar khaganate to the west was fracturing and further weakened by the frankish empire,this was a perfect moment to deal with it with minimal losses and Krum sent the Bulgarian armies to destroy it.Until 805 the avars were completely subdued.At the middle Danube Bulgaria now became a neighbour of the frankish empire and secured valuable deposits of silver ore and salt in the carpathian mountains.



Krum then turned his attention south,he sieged and took the city of Serdica(now Sofia-the capital of Bulgaria) and also gained some territories along the Struma valley.This drew the attention of the roman emperor Nicephoros I who eventually lost his head after taking a massive force aiming to destroy Bulgaria.Krum fought also many more battles and sieged and took many cities along the Black sea coas,even took Adrianople and other cities close to Constantinople but he died and the circumstances for the death are unknown.

His son Omurtag(814-831) realised that his people were more than exausted form these wars,so he signed a 30-year long peace treaty which was gladly accepted by the eastern roman emperor.He had huge building plans and used the peaceful period to realise them-many new cities were built and rebuilt others fortified,he also built ramparts along the borders one of which was more than 116 kilometres.He left many stone inscriptions carrying information about the period of his rule and some others like this:
Even if a man lives well he dies and another is born.And when the one who is born last sees the majesty of his ancestors and reads this may he remember the one who wrote it.

Generally during his rule trade flourished and the state completely recovered.

However there was a conflict with the frankish empire to the west which wanted to take some territories along the east bank of the Danube inhabited by slavs,their chiefs also wanted to separate.Omurtag sent an army along the Danube chased away the franks and subdued the tribes by sending the chiefs into exile and placing Bulgars in command.Also he was forced to ptotect his northeastern border from the magyars which he also defeated and restored the Dnieper border.
He also made a new system of ruling Bulgaria by dividing the territory into new regions called komitati each one of which was ruled by a man he trusted and kept only the territory around Pliska(the capital) under his direct command.Centralisation of the state was now full and the royal families disappeared.

Afer Omurtag his son Malamir came to power,he was still young and the ruler was actually the regent Isbul who took the region of Phillipopolis( yellow on the map below).Malamir was killed by his brother Zvinitsa who wanted to avenge him(Omurtag had three sons-Enravota,Zvinitsa and Malamir.The oldest of the three Enravota became a christian and that's why Omurtag forbid him to rule,he was later executed by Malamir when he took power)

The next ruler was the son of Zvinitsa Presian but he was also very young and the regent was again Isbul.During his reign further expansion followed as shown on the map(red):



Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 16-Jul-2007 at 04:15
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  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 12:17

The religion of the Bulgars is obscure but it is supposed that it was monotheistic, worshipping the Turkic Sky god Tangra. There is only one mentioning of Tangra in the 8 century inscription near the Madara river. All other sources simply talk about Bog, the Slavic and Aryan word for God. More confunsingly some Bulgar rulers, renowned for their persecution of Christians were depicted with Christian state symbols. There is a theory that Bulgars were Aryans (an early Christian sect). On the top of that, early Bulgar sacred places featured the plan of two concentric squares, typical to Zoroastian temples.

On Khan Omurtag's stamp for example he is holding a cross.Other bulgarian "pagan" rulers are also considered to be christians.There's a theory that all rulers from the Dulo dynasty were christians.
 
Khan Omurtag's stamp:
 
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 12:24
On the stone inscription at Madara it says "taGgra"Smile No serious proof just like there's no proof that their leaders were called Khans.The first mentioned title is from Krum's and Omurtag's time and it is "kanasubigi"(in old iranian i think it means leader sent from the stars/gods)

Some Bulgarian rulers were christians although we don't know the nation as a whole.For example Kubrat was baptised in Constantinople he was a close friend of emperor Heraclius.His son Asparuh and later Tervel were also christiansWink

However when Krum took power i've heard that he persecuted christians because he didn't want to let the eastern romans get influence on the Bulgars.



Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 25-May-2007 at 12:30
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 12:49
Some corrections:

1)The picture shows the medallion of Kanasubigi Omurtag,not a stamp.

2)Krum didnt started persecusions of christians.If there were some supressions during his reign it was because of military actions.Krum mainly moved a large number of byzantines in bulgarian lands north of Danube.Omurtag is the first one who really began purposeful persecusion of christians and his actions were continued by his son Malamir.

3)It is not proven that Asparukh and Tervel were christians.There are only suggestions.But it is highly likely that Tervel have accepted christianity when he received the title "Kesar"(Caesar).
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 14:09
Originally posted by Krum

Omurtag is the first one who really began purposeful persecusion of christians and his actions were continued by his son Malamir.


Well i always found this ridiculous how can a man depicted as a christian can persecute his own brothers in belief?Confused There must be some mistake,either the medallion isn't his or the eastern roman chronicles mistake him for someone else.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 14:39
He didnt persecute christians because of their beliefs.It was more politicial than religous problem,because christianity meant a huge byzantine influence.If Omurtag was christian then why he punished his son Enravota when he accepted christianity.

Another correction.The purposeful persecutions of christians started after the death of Krum.Sources mention a few names - Dokum,Diceng and Cok.

Edited by Krum - 25-May-2007 at 14:42
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 15:39
It was TaGGra on the inscription. Which according to Greek rules should be indeed read as "Tangra". However, it seems that there were several missed symbols in the word.
 
If Omurtag was christian then why he punished his son Enravota when he accepted christianity.
History knows many examples when different sects of Christians killed each others for religious reasons.


Edited by Anton - 25-May-2007 at 15:41
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2007 at 04:20
There is also a seal of Tervel,the son of Asparuh(the one who defeated the arabs and also helped Justinian II to get the throne for which received the title Caesar) which says
Holy Virgin,help Caesar Tervel

And there's him holding a cross againConfusedSeems Christianity wasn't very unpopular among the Bulgars' society before Boris I.




Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 16-Jul-2007 at 04:23
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2007 at 05:57
Some corrections from Tar:-):
 
1. When the turcs/ugris/magyars were first mentioned in relation with the danube-bulgars (who settled macedons somewhere down near to Dobrudja to protect the borders against the khazarian khanate or the magyars), so around the year 836 or 838 (after Omurtags death), the magyars already had reached the Danube. (Tth, S.L.: Hungarian-Bulgarian contacts in the ninth Century. in: Hungaro-Bulgarica V.)
 
2. I don't know any sources wich are telling about a bulgarian-hungarian war by the Dneper in the 800's. If you do, please post them.
 
3. As I 've several times already mentioned, In the Adm. de Imp. it is written that in the middle of the X. Centn. the pecheneg tribes were living in the hungarian territ. of the 2. part of the IX. Cent. And the first 4 pecheneg tribes (f.e. the kapkan and ertim) and  some hung. tribes 100 years before were living in todays walachia - in contrast with your map. 
 
4. And where were at that time the three large antient romanian vojvodinas in Transylvania? LOL
 
(and: where the "seven slavic tribes" really slavic? I know an other possibility from these age)
 
Thanks:
 
  TSZ
 
Huhh, I became a marcipan or what...:-)


Edited by Tar Szernd - 16-Jul-2007 at 07:26
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 03:55
Originally posted by Tar Szernd

1. When the turcs/ugris/magyars were first mentioned in relation with the danube-bulgars (who settled macedons somewhere down near to Dobrudja to protect the borders against the khazarian khanate or the magyars), so around the year 836 or 838 (after Omurtags death), the magyars already had reached the Danube. (Tth, S.L.: Hungarian-Bulgarian contacts in the ninth Century. in: Hungaro-Bulgarica V.)
 
2. I don't know any sources wich are telling about a bulgarian-hungarian war by the Dneper in the 800's. If you do, please post them.


Some sources say that the war was with the magyars,some others say that they were khazars.The only thing we know is that the Bulgars were able to push them on the other side of the river and restored the Dnieper border.
At this point i can provide only this rather vague source-a stone inscription of the Bulgars in Omurtag's times.

Kanasubigi Omurtag
Kopsis the copan(Bulgar title)
was my fed man
as he advanced with the army
he drowned in the Dnieper
he was from the Chakarar noble family


I'll try to find others which talk of the victory itself.By the way are you sure you're not mistaking this with the later war during the rule of Simeon I?The magyars(this time they are for sure) reached Dobrudja but Simeon made an alliance with the pechenegs and defeated them at Dnester river(a bit west from the Dnieper).After that they migrated through our northern lands to their territory northwest of Transilvania.

3. As I 've several times already mentioned, In the Adm. de Imp. it is written that in the middle of the X. Centn. the pecheneg tribes were living in the hungarian territ. of the 2. part of the IX. Cent.


According to the Administrando Imperio Bulgaria ruled all land from the middle Danube to the Dnieper,including the Carpatian mountains until 950-960.After that many tribes invaded and control of these lands was becoming more difficult,considering the invasions of svetoslav and the wars with the eastern roman empire.There were simply no spare armies for a third front.
Also in a treaty between Tzar Peter I of the Bulgars and the magyars both sides agreed that the border will be on the river Tissa.(look northwest on the map here)


At the times of the sons of Samuil(constantly until -1014) however control north of the Danube was fully lost.
 
4. And where were at that time the three large antient romanian vojvodinas in Transylvania? LOL

Confused
 
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:58
Relax, 4. was just a joke:-)
 
My answers:
 
1. On both sides of the upper-Tisza banks is supposed the main land of the hungarian ruling tribes until the 950's. There are f.e. Gesztrd, Eperjeske, Rakamaz, Szolyva, where the rich graves of the ruler clans had benn found. (its the green surrounded terr. on your map. It would had been a foulish thing from the kende (the hung. kagan) to settle on the enemy border.
 
(oh, and I marked some of the hung. graves dated (based on italian, frankish and arabian coins in the graves) between 900-950 in the bulgarian territ. in the Carp. basin - these were found before 1995; certenly after that a large amount of graves where found too)
 
 
The green surrounded terr. were found the richest hung. graves.
The red surr. areas were the pecheneg lands in the 950's-1050's after Konst. Perf. and german Bruno~ it took 3 days for him to reach the pecheneg lands from the Kievian borders). I made a mistake: the pechenegs ruled certenly the upper Krim territories too)
The black terr. is the Beretty-Hortobgy-Tisza crossing(second black/white photo), the brown is the Maros-Tisza crossing. (first black/white photo)
 
 
Early 10. cent. hungarian graves by the Tisza-Maros crossing
 
 
Early 10. Cent. hungarian gravesby the Beretty-Tisza crossing.
 
2. The banks of the Maros (Mures in romanian) were inhabitated by the Htmagyar (the tribe-union) minimum up to the high of today's Alba Iulia (GYulafehrvr), and a proof of hung sett. in the middle parth of Transilv. are the hung. graves in Kolozsvr (Cluj-Napoca).
I think, one of the main targets of the hungarians was these territory. Why? Just because one thing: because of salt. They didn't know that time the metal mines; but the salt and the Mures was very important for the bulgarians too, but imagine: in the end of the 9. Cent. from the hungarians and bulgarians it is possible that the hungarians had the larger amount of sheeps and cattles(and according to the map: they didn't want to get the grasy deepland east from the Tisza as soon as possible? they made short process with Big Moravia until 900...), and in the Carp. basin the hung-s didn't have the sea as a 'saltmine', but the bulgars had it. The bulgarians had just money from the transilvanian salt; the hungarians needed it to survive. Btw. in the Gesta Hungarorum it is mentioned that after the "pecheneg" (not "bulgarian") attack the hungarians fled to Transilvania and spend there some years (and builded seven castles ~ Siebenbrgen). it is possible that Almos(rpd's father) wasn't sacrificed because of the defeat by the pechenegs, but died in the wars during the occupation of Transylvania (in that time mostly the banks of the Krs, Maros and the passes) from the bulgars. 
 
3. On the by me overpainted:-) map there are some hung graves (with blue dots) marked south and east from Trans. You have to know, that they are showing some characteristic identicals with the hungarian graves in the Carp. basin. But: Most of the old hungarian (in khazaria, in Etelkz-in the Pontus, In Moldavia etc) and charpatian hungarian graves have a big difference: the new graves usually are richer in silver and gold objects. So it is very difficult to identify an easter nomadic grave as surely hungarian-ergo many antient found hung. graves are not identified as "hungarian" in Moldavia, in Walachia and in South-Ukraine.
 
4. The names of Csongrad, Pest etc: these were not necessary given by the Danube-Bulgarians; a/ thre were living enuogh kutrigurs, onogurs etc and slaves in the Avar Kaganat to do this; b/ in the Htmagyar too. Certenly  Csongrad could had been a bulgarian fortess, but if these  was the case, the hungarians surely occupied it early (ok, before 950-960:-)), because of Masudi: he wrote that in 932 there were living 4 turcic "tribes" north from Bizantium. One of them, the hungarians, if they went to the Danube (not to the Tisza), They could see the bulgars by W.l.n.d.r. (in hung. Nndor' Nndorfehrvr~Belgrad). 
 
5. The hungarians made a lot of military campaigns against the greek and f.e. Thracian territories of Bizantium, sometimes with the pechenegs and the kiev rus, but sometimes alone-in several cases with units under 500 men!! (f.e. this is mentioned in Liudprand's Antapodosis(?) ) How had they gone through the strong bulgarian territories?
 
6. The bulgarian attack after the 895/96 hung-bulg war:
 
 (my personaly question)How could Simeon in such a sort time call for the pechenegs? The bulgarians and pechenegs were no neighburs. It stood between them the some hundred kilometers long hungarian territory. The Black Sea was dominated mostly by the greek fleet.
 
I think, the westmoving of the hungarians was planed since 894 (when the pechenegs were beated and throved out from their lands by the uz torcs), and their role in the greek/bulgar conflict was part of this plan, so while the hung. main army began to attack Bulgaria (and some units occupied the Upper-Tisza region), the hung. tribes already began to move through the Carpatian passes into Transylvania and into the east hungarian deeplands. It is possible that the pechenegs had known from this plan, and followed the hung. treks. Maybe some parts of the moving hungarian tribes/families ( after the hung. main army moved from the lower Danube up tu the hung. deepland) were attacked and defeated by bulgarian troups, and because of these attack the remain (trek depending) hungarian powers were called away (to defend the side of the big trek) (I mean under 'trek' the moving families with their animals etc, maybe this is not the correct word for it, sorry) from the last tribes, wich was seen by some pechenegs, who attacked those.
 
And: maybe some of the original bulgarians in the Carp. basin joined with pleasure to the hungarians instead to live between the slaves far avay from the bulgarian ruler.
 
TSZ
 
 


Edited by Tar Szernd - 19-Jul-2007 at 15:08
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  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 03:32
I guess you're right.Control north of the Danube got difficult after 950- on and soon lost.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 05:21
Soon  the whole Bulgaria was lost. But during Second Bulgarian Tzardom Bulgarians and Hungarians again competed on territories north of Danube.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 08:46
But in the end both states are destroyed by ottomans.I know that during Second Bulgarian Tsardom we mainly controlled wallachia and parts ot Moldova,and of course Banate of Severin.
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  Quote diegis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 11:26
The second bulgarian tsardom was in fact a romanian ( vlach )- bulgarian empire, and his first rulers was vlach ( romanian ) family of Asan ( as byzantines and  pope himself said in that times
), the 3 brothers, Petru, Asan and Ionita ( Caloian ), and they use north danubians vlachs, yes, in their armies, as well as souther ones, and bulgars and cumans.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 12:00
This is a matter of point of view. There are different opinions on the ethnicity of Assenides. Including the one that they were actually Kumans. The language in this Vlach-Bulgarian Empire was slavonic. I.e. Bulgarian. Otherwise nobody doubts signifficant involvement of Vlachs in this state.

Edited by Anton - 18-Aug-2007 at 12:12
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  Quote diegis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 12:34
Byzantines chronicles from that time ( Nicetas chronicle for ex., but other documents too ) clearly name them vlachs ( a name gived to old romanians ), <who in the past was named mysi ( an older dacian tribe south of Danube, conquered by romans long before north dacians) and now vlachs>. As well, pope Inocentius in his letter to Caloian invoke the comon ancestors, the romans. And clearlly vlachs spoke romanian language in south of danube as well like in north. The same Nicetas Choniates chronicar said that Petru and Asan call the peoples for rebellion against byzantines in St Dumitru church from Tarnovo in their forefathers language.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 13:30
Originally posted by diegis

Byzantines chronicles from that time ( Nicetas chronicle for ex., but other documents too ) clearly name them vlachs ( a name gived to old romanians ),¨
Yes, but others chronicles (Scutariota, Nicephorus Gregoras and others) call them Bulgarians. Third call them kings of Bulgaria and Wallachia.  
 
<who in the past was named mysi ( an older dacian tribe south of Danube, conquered by romans long before north dacians) and now vlachs>.
 
Well, this is also disputable, Mysi and Dacians are supposed to be different tribes although both Thracians.
 
And clearlly vlachs spoke romanian language in south of danube as well like in north. The same Nicetas Choniates chronicar said that Petru and Asan call the peoples for rebellion against byzantines in St Dumitru church from Tarnovo in their forefathers language.
 
Yes, but this language was not specified. Again don't forget that there is no basically a single official document  from that time written in Wallachian language.
 
You may call it Vlach-Bulgarian Empire if you wish, I don't mind, but why don't call it Vlacho-Greko-Bulgarian Empire then? Or even Vlacho-Greko-Kumano-Bulgarian Empire? Tongue
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 14:39
Btw. in the Gesta Hungarorum it is mentioned that after the "pecheneg" (not "bulgarian") attack the hungarians fled to Transilvania and spend there some years (and builded seven castles ~ Siebenbrgen).


Is the first time I heard that. Where in the Gesta is mentioned about seven castles?



Most of the old hungarian (in khazaria, in Etelkz-in the Pontus, In Moldavia etc) and charpatian hungarian graves have a big difference: the new graves usually are richer in silver and gold objects.


Where did you heard about Hungarian graves in Moldavia?





You may call it Vlach-Bulgarian Empire if you wish, I don't mind, but why don't call it Vlacho-Greko-Bulgarian Empire then? Or even Vlacho-Greko-Kumano-Bulgarian Empire?


Could you tell us why the Sevastokrator Kaloyan painted inside the most famous Bulgarian church, Boiana is Vlach?


When referring to Kaloyan's realm and subjects, contemporary Crusader sources (including the works of Geoffroy de Villehardouin, Henri de Valenciennes, Robert de Clari) other comtemporary sources (like that of William de Rubruquis and Roger Bacon's "Opus Maius"), as well as the letters of the Latin Emperor Henry of Flanders) represent Kaloyan as King of Wallachia, ruler of Wallachians and leader of Wallachian armies, and sometimes as ruler of Wallachians and Bulgarians. Such sources talk mostly of Wallachians and call Ioanitsa a Wallachian and "lord of Wallachians" (Blachorum domino)






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 15:23
Simply because he was  the ruller of the state.
 
Besides, in the same wiki article, Menumorut, you can find:

The Byzantine historian from XIII century Theodor Scutariota named Kaloyan "the Bulgarian Ioan" or "Bulgarian basileus" and wrote about "Bulgarians", "Bulgarian land", "Bulgarian matters"; also he defined Ivan Asen I as "tsar of the Bulgarians"[5]. The same "probulgarian" point of view about the same persons and events was shared by several other Byzantine authors from XIII and XIV centuries like George Acropolites, George Pachymeres and Nicephorus Gregoras[6].

Not to mention inscriptions in the same Boyana chuch.
 
 
So, I would say, that nationality of the brothers is a kindof unsure, isn't it?
 
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