Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389

Originally posted by Sarmat12   Bayezid commited a suicide in Samrkand because he wasn't able to stand constant humiliation at the Timur's Royal court anymore. Timur put him in the iron cage, so Bayezid killed himself by breaking his head against the cage's bars.

kosovo polje 1389 June-September

Originally posted by svantoVID it appears, bayezid i might have been injured in the battle of cibuk plane near ankara he was carried around in a specially made bed placed between two horses   months after the battle, still in anadolia, there was a big party, a multiple wedding, involving among others timur's grandsons marrying bayezid's daughters   perhaps, at the same ceremony, two lazar's granddaughters had been married to timur's grandson and son of the timur's general, respectivelly girls mother, lazar's youngest daughter olivera, might had served wine to her husband bayezid, which appeared rather strange to some of timur's entourage   some dervish wrote proudly to have had succeeded in converting olivera to islam   bayezid expired during the night of 1403.03.(08-09) in Aksehir Anadolia, probably of internal injuries sustained in battle(s)

one could start with von Hammer, follow his references, expand ...

 First of all, battle at Kosovo in 1389. was nowhere near as important as the battle of Marica some twenty years earlier. Combined Serbian and Bulgarian forces outnumbered Turkish troops in that particular battle, but  thanks to the military brilliance of Sahin Pasha Turks won the battle which was crucial for the further development of war.
Serbian knights at Kosovo fought bravely together with their Christian allies and they weren't defeated as the popular culture says today- most likely it was a tie, since Turks retreated immediately after the battle just to bring reinforcements later and force Serbian nobles to become their vassals who suffered loses alike their enemies but were not able to recover in numbers for future stuggle.
Regarding Milos Obilic, that person never existed- it is a mythical hero created in popular literature thanks to Marvo Orbin, historian from Dubrovnik, many years later. How did Amurad/Murad/Murat died is very hard to say. Maybe he was killed by his son, maybe he was killed prior to the battle or after the battle since most historians agree it was impossible for an enemy to approach his tent during the battle. As far as his killer is concerned the only contemporary person to the battle of Kosovo who ever claimed to be the killer of the Sultan was King Stefan Tvrtko I of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands.

 What he also mentioned in his letters along with "defeating the infidels" was that he personally killed Murad (source- Rade Mihaljčić, "Junaci kosovske legende", page 10, BIGZ, 1989, Beograd).  Certainly, this was a propaganda, but I just mentioned it for the sake of my previous argument regarding the myth of Milos Obilic and the battle itself.  On the other hand, any one of his subjects fighting the battle could've easily been the one who killed Murad and according to the standards of that era killing would be attributed to Tvrtko himself. Certainly, these statements do not prove a thing, so they can only be treated as pure speculation, but I found them interesting enough to be mentioned.

svantoVID-I didn't however had the opportunity to read those Ottoman sources regarding the battle of Kosovo, so I would appreciate if you could mentioned a few in order for me to look them up (I'm sure most of them are available in English). I must admit this is the first time I heard about Lazar's capture "after the battle while fleeing" and would be eager to learn more about it. 
As for your statement regarding Tvrtko "not mentioning Lazar in his letter"- well, that has probably nothing to do with one's importance on the battlefield but rather the fact that Tvrtko had it's eyes on vacant Serbian throne and logically recognized Stefan Lazarevic as the arch rival. Therefore, he had a good reason not to mention his father.
Cheers,
Larus


Edited by Larus - 27-Jun-2007 at 06:29

Legitimate king of Serbs and Bosnia, you mean? ;)

Originally posted by es_bih Originally posted by Larus Legitimate king of Serbs and Bosnia, you mean? ;)   Yes indeed, however, it still does not mean that "Serbs" applies to Bosnia now does it

Certainly not! Concept of the nation is something rather contemporary and has nothing to do with the middle ages, therefore I'm not nor I ever will try to imply something like that here or anywhere else. Tvrtko belongs to all Bosnians regardless of their national or religios background, but that's another story. 
This is going so offtopic- in order to correct that-  my ONLY point was, Tvrtko wanted to be the sovereign of the territories on the east and it was perfectly legitimate to the standards of the time since he was the closest living relative to the Nemanjic dynasty.  But he didn't have factual rule over the territories once controlled by Nemanjic dynasty. That is why he saw Lazarevic/Hrebeljanovic as a potential opposition. That's all I wanted to say.
Cheers,
Larus

I dont belive the battle of Kosovo to be so important.Inded the secont battle of kosovo is even more important.

Originally posted by miki015 Our proverb say : "What belong to other we dont want,but what belong to us we will not gave to others!"

Lies, so typical of a Serb. Centuries of your imperialism attempts speak otherwise. In last 15yrs alone, you have waged wars and had conflicts with most of your neighbours.

Not only that, but you're also ungrateful. When Turks conquered Serbia and nearby regions, you fled to Croatia, and populated the lands which bordered with Ottomans. Instead of saying thanks, few centuries later, you started saying that was always your land and it should belong to you, and then you invaded us. Disgusting.

And please spare us the nationalistic propaganda in this thread, no myth of yours will override historical facts. Your nation is the only one i know of in the whole world, which celebrates a lost battle as a national holiday.

but,with faith in God,that Holy warriors and Martyrios block the way and protect the Europe...

Croatia protected Europe 20x better than Serbia did, so what's your point? Serbia got thrashed and conquered, while Croatia resisted and was doing the contribution for centuries, even being called by Pope "antemurale christianis", the bulwark of christianity. Of course, tactics used were mostly asymetric, such as these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskok

Originally posted by Bulldog I really cannot believe what I have just read, is this what is taught in Serbia about this war?

Yes. And about many other things. Welcome to Balkans. This is the credo: "Repeat something 100x, and it will become the truth."

Originally posted by es_bih You obviously are a Serbian nationalist

How long did it took you to figger that out? :)))) Just look at how he presents the arguments: "it was 2v1, we pwnd Turks, and nothing can be known of this battle that says something bad about us... whooops someone else has historical data? I deny!" :)