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Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389
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Sarmat View Drop Down
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battle at Kosovo Polje/Kosovo Field; 1389
    Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:06
Originally posted by Bulldog

 However, after the war we know that they both respected each other and Timur mourned Bayezids death.
 
  I'm sorry but do you know how Bayazid actually died ?
 
Timurlane put him in the cage so that everybody could mock and humiliate him in Tamerlane's palace in Samarkand.
 
It was however to much for poor Bayazed, so he broke his head at the cage's bar.
 
Well, not so much respect. It's another topic though.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:21
Read about this battle also.
 
My impression is that in all the major battles fought by Ottomans they had a huge numeric superiority.
 
It's amazing, a small army of the Principality of Moldavia defeated the huge Ottoman army.
 
A really heroic deed !   Clap
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vaslui


Edited by Sarmat12 - 05-Jun-2007 at 21:29
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 04:16
@The Bosnian army was not Serb, nor even Orthodox Christian, the only Bosnian region that had a significant number of Orthodox Christians(not Serbs) was Hercegovina. Bosnia proper was majority Catholic, and offshoot Bosnian Church, there were ten or twenty orthodox families in  the border regions. You obviously are a Serbian nationalist, and King Tvrtko I was a Bosnian king, who had been crowned king of Serbs as well. That is why he send his Bosnian army to fight alongside the Serb forces.@

It was Serbian royal line also. He sent only small force that took left side of the battle. You make mistake by thinking that only Serbian land was Serbia. And also you think that only orthodox christians in the Balkans were Serbs. Big mistake. There were also catholic Serbs in the Balkans. Do you want to say that Raska was not Serbian land also? Just because it was not called Serbia?!

I am not a nationalist. I just think that Kosovo battle doesnt deserve this treatment. Also i think Serbs dont deserve this kind of treatment in  history.

I think that you are either Croat or BosnjakConfused and thats why you wrote bunch of craps.

Serbian army was outnumbered greatly and maybe by 2 vs 1. In that period of it was really bad odds. Inspite that, Serbs came on the battlefield and fought valiantly, and maybe defeated Turkish army in military mean.
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Posts: 358 		  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 10:50
Originally posted by feanor11985

Turks will say that Murad was killed in assasination ofcourse. They will not admit if he was killed in combat with Lazar's center.
 
think about this logically. ottoman sources tell us that murad I was murdered by a deserter after the battle. serb nationalists such as yourself claim he was killed in battle. now looking at both arguments:
if he was killed in battle, how would the serbs know? when leaders die in battle the opposing army learns of their death after the battle. for instance the last emperor of the byzantine empire, Constantine XI, was summoned by Mehmed the Conqueror after the capture of constantinople only for Mehmed to find out later he died in battle. when the opposing army does learn of that leaders death, its through contacts in the opposing army's nation, so if the sultan had died in battle it would say so in Ottoman sources. Besides which, if the sultan had died in battle the ottoman army would have disintegrated and been defeated almost instantaneously.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 14:38
Originally posted by feanor11985

@The Bosnian army was not Serb, nor even Orthodox Christian, the only Bosnian region that had a significant number of Orthodox Christians(not Serbs) was Hercegovina. Bosnia proper was majority Catholic, and offshoot Bosnian Church, there were ten or twenty orthodox families in  the border regions. You obviously are a Serbian nationalist, and King Tvrtko I was a Bosnian king, who had been crowned king of Serbs as well. That is why he send his Bosnian army to fight alongside the Serb forces.@

It was Serbian royal line also. He sent only small force that took left side of the battle. You make mistake by thinking that only Serbian land was Serbia. And also you think that only orthodox christians in the Balkans were Serbs. Big mistake. There were also catholic Serbs in the Balkans. Do you want to say that Raska was not Serbian land also? Just because it was not called Serbia?!

I am not a nationalist. I just think that Kosovo battle doesnt deserve this treatment. Also i think Serbs dont deserve this kind of treatment in  history.

I think that you are either Croat or BosnjakConfused and thats why you wrote bunch of craps.

Serbian army was outnumbered greatly and maybe by 2 vs 1. In that period of it was really bad odds. Inspite that, Serbs came on the battlefield and fought valiantly, and maybe defeated Turkish army in military mean.
 
I am Bosnian, and I did not write bunch of "craps" either. I just don't follow the traditional nationalist Serbian view on history where everything, and everyone somewhow is a Serb or connected to Serbdom. "Srbija do Tokija LOL"
 
You may not be a nationalist, but you stil do follow "BS" historical pretensions that the Bosnian royal line is Serbian, why? because, Serbs would take it the hard way that a Bosnian was king of Serbs.
 
Taking a stance and saying everyone and everything was Serbian is rather ludicrous. Especially in an age where ethnicity was not defined in the same way you define it or I define it.etc...
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:54
Now i understand everything.
You just cant stand that Bosnjaks didnt exist in that time. It was Serbs and Croats. There were not Bosnjaks. Modern history clearly says that.
Serbs just have two kingdoms, one Serbia and one Bosnia. Serbia was called Raska earlier. Serbs was orthodox and some smaller part was catholic. While Croats was mainly catholic. There were not any Bosnjaks!
It is modern problem that many modern states in the Balkans made their own history which is bunch of craps.

Kurt@@
It is point that Turks would not say that their king died in battle, because its more profitable for them to say that he was killed by assassin.
By some sources, he died at the end of the battle by the last charge at his royal bodyguards. Charge was taken by Milos Obilic greatest Serbian champion at the time, and his comrades. That was after Lazar died and when it was end of the battle.

I dont want to say that is the ultimate truth but point is that nothing is clearly from that period. We only have some informations from which we must make larger picture.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 04:36
Yeah, just produce some tale, than say nothing is clearly from that period..
 
 
 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 05:52
Originally posted by feanor11985

Serbia was called Raska earlier. Serbs was orthodox and some smaller part was catholic. While Croats was mainly catholic. There were not any Bosnjaks!
 
As far as I remember, Bosnjaks were mainly Bogomils at that time, weren't they?
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 06:07
Yep. They were Bogomils, and that's why the got Islamisized.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:23
Sarmat
I'm sorry but do you know how Bayazid actually died ?
 
There are a number of conflicting sources.
 
According to first-hand sources of the time ie Timur's historians, Bayazid was treated well, Timur tried to help him become leader of the Ottoman state again, they played chess together and Timur mourned his death.
 
Other sources tell of Timur putting him in a cage and parrading him around town. Also another source tells of Timur using Bayezid as a footstool and keeping him as a trophy prize.
 
It must be said, the more outragous tales of Timur's actions towards Bayezid were written at later dates by people's who didn't actually see them.
 
 
 
Feonor
Only that is sure for this battle is that Serbs was outnumbered 2 by 1, that it was mainly Serbian army, that is was great sacrifise from the Serbian nobles.
Serbs was asking for help from all Europian people but allmost noone came.
 
This is all very romantic by doesn't reflect what the sources say.
 
It wasn't a Serbian vs Turk war showdown were every Serbian fought against the "terrible Turk".
 
The war was one based upon power struggles in the region, the Kingdoms in the Balkans were weakening, they were neglecting lesser lords, not running the state efficiently and not paying.
 
Many Serbian lords and other lords joined the Ottomans who allowed them to maintain their status and also provided them with alot more disposable power, wealth, regional autonomy and even rights.
 
This is the key factor you are ignoring.
 
The war was one against the decadent lords of the region against a new growing power in the region which were the Ottomans.
 
A large chunk of Sultan Murdad's army were actually Serbs, you do know this? not just a "few" traitors, powerfull lords with their voyniks armies were fighting with Murad agains other lords.
 

 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:42
Originally posted by feanor11985

Now i understand everything.
You just cant stand that Bosnjaks didnt exist in that time. It was Serbs and Croats. There were not Bosnjaks. Modern history clearly says that.
Serbs just have two kingdoms, one Serbia and one Bosnia. Serbia was called Raska earlier. Serbs was orthodox and some smaller part was catholic. While Croats was mainly catholic. There were not any Bosnjaks!
It is modern problem that many modern states in the Balkans made their own history which is bunch of craps.

Kurt@@
It is point that Turks would not say that their king died in battle, because its more profitable for them to say that he was killed by assassin.
By some sources, he died at the end of the battle by the last charge at his royal bodyguards. Charge was taken by Milos Obilic greatest Serbian champion at the time, and his comrades. That was after Lazar died and when it was end of the battle.

I dont want to say that is the ultimate truth but point is that nothing is clearly from that period. We only have some informations from which we must make larger picture.


 
There were Bosnians then and now, modern history clearly instills that notion.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:43
BTW I'm pretty sure you are breaching a few CoC guidelines on posting with nationalist, incitive, deragatory posts.
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:35
Originally posted by Bulldog

According to first-hand sources of the time ie Timur's historians, Bayazid was treated well, Timur tried to help him become leader of the Ottoman state again, they played chess together and Timur mourned his death.

Hmm that sounds kinda strange, you invade ones country, defeat its army, and then try to install the same guy back at the throne.

In which primary source Bayezid's captivity is described like you wrote?




Edited by axeman - 07-Jun-2007 at 14:36
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Posts: 769 		  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 04:11
the Albanians of Kosovo as well.


Actually, lower-central Albanians. They were under the leadership of a member of the Muzaka family. He reportedly died during the battle.


Edited by Theodore Felix - 08-Jun-2007 at 04:15
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Posts: 76 		  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 22:37

Saying that Tvrtko I Kotromanic was from a serbian royal line is a bit misleading, because Tvrtko like any monarch in medieval europe had blood ties to multiple monarchs.  Which in Tvrtko's case were to to the serbian family of Nemanjic, but also even more to the croatian family os Subic and and Hungarian royal family.

As far as Bosniaks not existing is not quite accurate.  The term Bosniak did not exist at that time, unstead the term Bosnjan (I hope you see the relation) was used in multiple bosnian royal documents describing the inhabitans of Bosnia proper. 
 
As far as Bosnia being a serbian kingdom, that is just nonsense, and is just based on the serbian assumption that all south slavs are originally serbs, which is very flaud, since originally the modern notion of nationality did not even exist.  The only senseable coclusion that could be made about about the inhabitants of medieval bosnia, serbia, and croatia is that they were south slavs, speaking a south slav tounge, and that they were seperated by by borders, that were changeing constantly, and religion.
 
Also the popular assumption about many bosnians (bosnjani) being bogomils is falud.  Most modern historians disagree with that.  the more recent theories say that besides being chatolic and orthodox many bosnians belonged to the bosnian church, which is just an off shoot of the Chatolic church due to the remoteness of the bosnian terrain.
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Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 09:27
Wasn't he killed in Samarkand by Tamerlane soon after his soon Murad took the throne?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 14:24

Hi,may i join the debate?LOL

 

The only certain thing is that the battle was cruel and both leaders Murad and Lazar died,And the turkish army won,but they didnt took at once the control of the province,for example Bayzid returned  to instambul immediately with all his army to secure his throne,and the Lazars son stefan accepted the turkish vasallage.

The principal elements in the Ballkanic army were the lazars men(lord of central serbia),Brankovics men(lord of Kosovo),bosniaks under the command of Vukovic(one of the Tvrtkos generals),albanians under the lead of Teodor Muzaka,and many other nationalities like hungarians(some fonts say:czechs,valachians,franchs,bulgarians ecc)

The same with the Turkish Army serbs,bulgarians,greeks,albanians fought on their side.

Army numbers

Turks vs Serbs

40000/60000 vs 100000turkish version

40000 vs 25000

27000/30000 vs 15000/20000both serbian version the second one is accepted from the principal western scholars.

About the battle,i guess it was just a battle and not that important,what we have today is much more a myth than a historical event,for example the importance of the second battle of Kosovo(were the Serbian role wasnt that positive) or of the precedent battle near the Marica river were an entire Serbian army were destroyed by an surprise nocturnal attack is bigger.

 
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Posts: 269 		  Quote violentjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 11:24
Originally posted by es_bih

That's exactly what the battle of Kosovo Polje turned out to be a conglomeration of states vs. the Ottoman army, Lazar participated with various Serbian principalities under his control, Tvrtko I of Bosnia sent his army, Hungary sent their Hungarian and Croatian troops, the Albanians of Kosovo as well. It was a multi-national effort, it was not a "Serbian" battle that's where the myth starts that it was some kind of Serbian action. Lazar could not have stood a chance without the crucial help from Bosnia and Hungary. Tvrtko held the title of King of Serbs unlike Lazar, he held some of the western principalities, he had the influence to muster enough troops for that encounter. If Lazar had initiated the battle with no help it would have been a single sided slaughter.


More or less, you are right.Even Franks send contingent of army there

Remember after Maritza 1371, more Europeans came to portray Ottomans, as global European issue, and they acted that way.Best example of that unity, would be Battle of Varna, or Varna disaster, when crusaders were about to defeat Ottomans.And guess who saved them.Serbs

Loooooool
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 10:12
I never knew Murad such important to Balkans. He was merely a Beg of small Ottoman sultanate at those times. Confused
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 08:01
Originally posted by Earl Aster

Wasn't he killed in Samarkand by Tamerlane soon after his soon Murad took the throne?
 
1. Bayezid died with his own fate in captivity, not killed.
2. There has been a civil war in Ottoman country after Tamerlane's victory Bayezid's captivity. The former "bey"s of Anatolian "Beylik"s took the power back in the territories they ruled before, with support of Tamerlane. And the sons of Bayazid fell into a long civil war(which took 11 years). The victory was won by Mehmed I, one of the sons of Bayazid and he managed to unify the Ottomans again, then helping it to return back to its former status. Though The Battle of Ankara, 1402, has very longlasting effects. The Anatolian lands, which was mostly unified under Ottoman rule during Bayezid's time, was divided once again and it took more than 50 years to make a reunification.
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