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Christ-Knight
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Topic: United States of Europe...? Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 10:17 |
Hi there, it is known that in the past Europe had great wars, kings, emperors... a huge amount of independent nations... and what about he future? Will we gonna be the new "United States of Europe"....? What do you think about that...? p.s. - I hope so!
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Scheich
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:20 |
A big state with many peoples doesn't work! Every people looks to its interrests!
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:34 |
Absolutely not. I believe Europe should be even more divided, as the current political borders do not satisfy the people living in them. I support all peaceful political movements in Europe, and still believe in an Europe made not of states, but of nations.
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:39 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Absolutely not. I believe Europe should be even more divided, as the current political borders do not satisfy the people living in them. I support all peaceful political movements in Europe, and still believe in an Europe made not of states, but of nations.
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No I do not agree with you... "A Unio faz a Fora..." remebrer that. All the ancient empires were made of an huge amount of cultures/civilizations. This is good for everyone.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:43 |
All the Ancient Empires perished.
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:48 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
All the Ancient Empires perished. |
All the Empires come to an end... ancient or not... but while it is on his maximum strenght people are very fine. Remember, the Empires are made by land, but more important are the people... p.s. - desculpa a pergunta, mas s do PPM?
Edited by Christ-Knight - 09-Apr-2007 at 12:49
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 12:53 |
Reply to p.s. - Cruzes credo, claro que no. Em geral no sou de direita.
I am not against a Union. I am against a Unification. It's diferent.
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xristar
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 06:21 |
Really? And tell me why is supposed greek Macedonia to be handed over to Fyrom? Have you ever been here? Do you know the situation. I inform you that in fact OUR borders should go to the north. Where are the Greeks of FYROM and Albania? THe designer of this map should be more responsible and not susceptible only to propaganda.
Seriously now, that's an example on why you can't simply say that new national states should emerge. It's like asking for a new WWI.
What we want as a future of the EU is ONE state, MANY nations. I do not want to lose my language and speak English (or French or German) instead. As it happened in the USA.
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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 06:53 |
Originally posted by xristar
Really? And tell me why is supposed greek Macedonia to be handed over to Fyrom? Have you ever been here? Do you know the situation. I inform you that in fact OUR borders should go to the north. Where are the Greeks of FYROM and Albania? THe designer of this map should be more responsible and not susceptible only to propaganda.
Seriously now, that's an example on why you can't simply say that new national states should emerge. It's like asking for a new WWI.
What we want as a future of the EU is ONE state, MANY nations. I do not want to lose my language and speak English (or French or German) instead. As it happened in the USA. |
I said it was a good map, not a perfect one.
There are several areas in there which I don't agree with as well.
And that premise of ONE State MANY Nations is impossible, because it will never respond to each nation's interests equaly. Spain and France are good examples. I support ONE State, ONE Nation, even if it means a very small one.
But you shouldn't add to much importance to my words, I'm a dreamer still living in the 12th Century.
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 12:30 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Reply to p.s. - Cruzes credo, claro que no. Em geral no sou de direita.
I am not against a Union. I am against a Unification. It's diferent.
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Eheheh
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 12:36 |
Originally posted by xristar
Really? And tell me why is supposed greek Macedonia to be handed over to Fyrom? Have you ever been here? Do you know the situation. I inform you that in fact OUR borders should go to the north. Where are the Greeks of FYROM and Albania? THe designer of this map should be more responsible and not susceptible only to propaganda.
Seriously now, that's an example on why you can't simply say that new national states should emerge. It's like asking for a new WWI.
What we want as a future of the EU is ONE state, MANY nations. I do not want to lose my language and speak English (or French or German) instead. As it happened in the USA. |
In fact, the hipothethic "United States of Europe" does not mean that you or me have to loose our language to speak something else... They can make an "universal language" for the most important things, but in our days you have it... notice that I'm talking with you in English... not in Portuguese or Greek... In my opinion a single nation is better for everyone... and it will bring a new balance to the middle east and for all the world. For example, can you imagine the military power.... ?? it is something hugeeeeee!!! I'm not a war fan!!! I love peace, but just like the ancients said... "If you want the peace, prepair for war..."
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 12:39 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Originally posted by xristar
Really? And tell me why is supposed greek Macedonia to be handed over to Fyrom? Have you ever been here? Do you know the situation. I inform you that in fact OUR borders should go to the north. Where are the Greeks of FYROM and Albania? THe designer of this map should be more responsible and not susceptible only to propaganda.
Seriously now, that's an example on why you can't simply say that new national states should emerge. It's like asking for a new WWI.
What we want as a future of the EU is ONE state, MANY nations. I do not want to lose my language and speak English (or French or German) instead. As it happened in the USA. |
I said it was a good map, not a perfect one.
There are several areas in there which I don't agree with as well.
And that premise of ONE State MANY Nations is impossible, because it will never respond to each nation's interests equaly. Spain and France are good examples. I support ONE State, ONE Nation, even if it means a very small one.
But you shouldn't add to much importance to my words, I'm a dreamer still living in the 12th Century. |
You are a trully "Mr. Feudal Age..." kidding!!! o futuro a unio num s e nao a unio "desunida"...
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 19:33 |
The EU is basicly a Confederation, and so is NATO, really. And looking at it that way, you can be nations united and still retain your culture and language.
Just because your united doesn't mean you have to be like the US as a Federation.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 05:34 |
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy
The EU is basicly a Confederation, and so is NATO, really. And looking at it that way, you can be nations united and still retain your culture and language.
Just because your united doesn't mean you have to be like the US as a Federation. |
We know that, and that's the way we like it. But this "confederation" is pushing a lot towards becoming a "federation", something I personaly do not want to see.
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 09:22 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy
The EU is basicly a Confederation, and so is NATO, really. And looking at it that way, you can be nations united and still retain your culture and language.
Just because your united doesn't mean you have to be like the US as a Federation. |
We know that, and that's the way we like it. But this "confederation" is pushing a lot towards becoming a "federation", something I personaly do not want to see. |
But I want... Our origins are inside of us, just like our culture... federation or not, we'll never lose it... I "vote" YES for the federation.
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Theodore Felix
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 10:50 |
The European union is a necessary confederation if Europe ever wants to compete with major world powers(China, US, Russia etc.) instead of being tied down to petty feuding based on centuries old dynastic struggles.
Stand united, fall divided. You never know what kind of danger will be born tomorrow.
Well, at least this is my view.
Edited by Theodore Felix - 11-Apr-2007 at 10:52
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 12:56 |
A very visible sign of how The United States of Europe is still very very far off is the Spanish company Accionia being bought by a smaller spanish company instead of being taken over by E.On a German corporate giant. Politics has played a very big hand on this one
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Jagiello
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 14:48 |
My opinion is that we all think very selfish-none of us wants to speak other language or have other culture,nomather if it is going to be a lot better this way.It is because we are allready brain-washed by our own nation's interrests.If we however think about our children and grandchildren-is it better to sacrafice you're language or culture in the name of our descendants.If we do this and create something like US but in Europe,a single country with one language-possibly english,it will be far better for our children.We will have a real hard time(if we live to this)loosing our language or culture but if it is in the name of the future generations i think i am ready to do this.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 16:01 |
I doubt.Europe cannot become a Federation,like the US ,because even though we are all Europeans ,you can still find great language ,customary etc differences among the different nations.In the US case,you have people of multiple origins ,but they were all in the same economical and social status (Colonial Status) .In Europe there are vast differences.Hellas is in a different economical ,social and political status from Great Britain and Norway.The same for Spain and Poland.In Europe there are 2 speeds.The strong States and the others who want to reach them.You cannot have a federation with that.Low economical and socials status feeds nationalism.And nationalism destroys any step for unification.
Also ,in the US case,you have Colonials who occupied a territory which ,originally,belonged to the natives.In Europe ,everybody say that they are there since the Ancient Years.Everybody have rights on the land since everybody where always there.
Moreover,you have a devastating past of blood set,which remains still strong(for example Balkan nationalism.).
Edited by Spartakus - 11-Apr-2007 at 16:03
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Christ-Knight
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Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 16:56 |
Originally posted by Jagiello
My opinion is that we all think very selfish-none of us wants to speak other language or have other culture,nomather if it is going to be a lot better this way.It is because we are allready brain-washed by our own nation's interrests.If we however think about our children and grandchildren-is it better to sacrafice you're language or culture in the name of our descendants.If we do this and create something like US but in Europe,a single country with one language-possibly english,it will be far better for our children.We will have a real hard time(if we live to this)loosing our language or culture but if it is in the name of the future generations i think i am ready to do this. |
Yes, I'm tottaly agree with you. If anyone has to make some effort in the name of the future, I'm able to do that. No one lives from the past... If we want to think the future, we have to let go (but not forget)some things in the past... I still belive on a Federation, and I'll tell you more, in the next 20 years get ready for it...
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