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Which country has the best fighter pilots?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Which country has the best fighter pilots?
    Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 05:39
I have seen some good pilots in many different Air Forces from around the world. With varying techniques incorporated into the training of these pilots, in your opinion, who has the best pilots?
 
Note: this is not judging the size of a particular country's Air Force nor its technological capabilities


Edited by Jackson - 08-Mar-2007 at 05:41
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 06:11
Russian females are the best apparently, in terms of raw natural skill. Something about them possessing a more natural grasp of three dimensional concepts is what I read. They certainly performed well in WWII.

With training taking into consideration, I have no idea.
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Posts: 568 		  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:21
Originally posted by Jackson

Note: this is not judging the size of a particular country's Air Force nor its technological capabilities


This alone makes your question impossible. Avionics and the overall performance of the aircraft are what set air forces apart. You can not compare a F-22A pilot with a Mig 29 pilot. The Mig 29 pilot may have better flying skills or can do whatever but his aircraft will lose almost every time to a F-22A. Also the larger Air forces tend to have a larger budget which means more flying hours more simulator time etc. which in turn usually produce better skilled pilots. The top ten pilots of alot of air forces might be equal but its the next 10 and the 10 after that and so on that separate Air forces.
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:26
SubjectTopic: Which country has the best fighter pilots?
 
Countries that spend more on training & equipment will eventually produce better pilots.  USA, Russia, etc.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:32
Not Russia. There airforce is grounded for lack of spares half the time.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:54
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Russian females are the best apparently, in terms of raw natural skill. Something about them possessing a more natural grasp of three dimensional concepts is what I read. They certainly performed well in WWII.

With training taking into consideration, I have no idea.
 
Do you have any sources to this? From what I know, women can just sustain more Gs than men, this does not equate to more skill, just tolerance.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:04
Overall: USNAF, USAF and RAF
Experience: IAF
Skill: I don't know, but I'd rather go for VVO.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:57
Originally posted by Jackson

I have seen some good pilots in many different Air Forces from around the world. With varying techniques incorporated into the training of these pilots, in your opinion, who has the best pilots?
 
The receipe for producing an excellent pilot seems to be
A. Individual with a technical education 
B  Alot of money for very expensive flight time and other training 
C.  A very expensive airforce infrastructure that matches training with developed doctrines.
 
Many western nations have recesources for all three points  and have chosen developed all three points.  Of these nations, I dont think it is possible to say that one pilot is better than that of another nation. (witht he exception of USN Carrier pilots)   Thus USAF, IAF, RAF, French, German and Japanese Airforces etc. are all roughly equal.
 
It is more itneresting to look at the skill of the pilots of nations that do not have as much money to develop points A,B,C yet still produce very good pilots.   Of these nations, Turkey, Greece and Pakistan are good examples of "producing alot with less".
 


Edited by Cryptic - 08-Mar-2007 at 16:04
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:07
Which countries actually have pilots and/or instructors who have come up against an equally matched enemy?
 
Bombing undefended buildings is no better than a training exercise.
 
In 1988 an Iranian Phantom evaded two sparrow missiles from a US F-14 - that's experience.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:09
Originally posted by Zagros

Which countries actually have pilots and/or instructors who have come up against an equally matched enemy?
 
Bombing undefended buildings is no better than a training exercise.
 
In 1988 an Iranian Phantom evaded two sparrow missiles from a US F-14 - that's experience.
 
A point well taken.  There have been very few equally matched pilot on pilot encounters since WWII.  The only ones that I can think of are....
    1. Israel verse Arabs in 1956, 1967, 1973
    2.  Pakistan verse India encouters
    3.  USA verse North Vietnamese (very Arguable but North Vietnamese did have access to USSR training system).
 
Any others? 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:17
Iran V Iraq
 
 
^ Good book on the air war.
 
 
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:44
Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Russian females are the best apparently, in terms of raw natural skill. Something about them possessing a more natural grasp of three dimensional concepts is what I read. They certainly performed well in WWII.

With training taking into consideration, I have no idea.
 
Do you have any sources to this? From what I know, women can just sustain more Gs than men, this does not equate to more skill, just tolerance.


No, I'm afriad I don't have a single source. So feel free to dismiss it. One must admit that the performance of Soviet women, equipped with vastly inferior aircraft to their German enemies, was very good.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:53
No I won't dismiss it, I just wanted to know if it was backed up, it is possible.  I believe that any piece of equipment, military in particular (where it's often a matter of life and death), is only as good as s/he who operates it.

Edited by Zagros - 08-Mar-2007 at 17:54
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:01

In order to say who is good Pilot must consider the follow facts......

-Mission
-Training
-Disposition
-Experience
 
As about in which AF is the best in my opinion are the ....
 
-Leadership
-Training
-Tactics
-Experience
-Support
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 23:37

The Iran-Iraq air war showed the Iranians to be pretty poor at aircombat. The reason was most likley that many of the pilots were nice and inexperienced. Ayatollah had shot most of the good ones beforehand.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 18:07
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Zagros

Which countries actually have pilots and/or instructors who have come up against an equally matched enemy?
 
Bombing undefended buildings is no better than a training exercise.
 
In 1988 an Iranian Phantom evaded two sparrow missiles from a US F-14 - that's experience.
 
A point well taken.  There have been very few equally matched pilot on pilot encounters since WWII.  The only ones that I can think of are....
    1. Israel verse Arabs in 1956, 1967, 1973
    2.  Pakistan verse India encouters
    3.  USA verse North Vietnamese (very Arguable but North Vietnamese did have access to USSR training system).
 
Any others? 
 
I think for #1 and 2 it would be a case of better planning and strategy. I think it is very hard to make the case for best pilots, when equipment disparity and the inability to provide resources for training are considered.
 
As a rule of thumb however the better trained will be better pilots, but an outcome of a particular campaign may not neccesarily reflect that.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 19:58
Originally posted by Sparten

The Iran-Iraq air war showed the Iranians to be pretty poor at aircombat. The reason was most likley that many of the pilots were nice and inexperienced. Ayatollah had shot most of the good ones beforehand.

 
What's your source? Iranian air to air kills were 5 for every 1 loss and Iran carried out one of the most daring air raids in modern warfare when a squadron of Phantoms flew to Iraq's Jordanian border (where Saddam thought, they'd be safe) and destroyed 40 grounded aircraft, it involved low altitude flight and refuelling at 1000ft.  Poor? I think not.
 
The Iranian airforce was instrumental in repulsing the invasion.
 
And actually a lot of pilots were purged, but more were in prisons, they were released after begging to be let out to defend their country.


Edited by Zagros - 09-Mar-2007 at 20:20
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 00:30
A daring raid or two is not the point. The point is that Iran had superior planes and despite that failed to make its mark on the Iraqis ( the basra campaign being one example), indeed the Iraqis had air superiority for most of the war. The fact that IIAF were unable to make any headway on the ground war is even worse considering the 5:1 kill ration claim, the job of an airforce is the support the ground war. Where the hell were they?
 
Look I am not some Persianphobe. But the fact is that in the Iran Iraq war, Iran only came out of it due to Iraqi exhaustion and the fighting determination of Iranian volunteers. Armour, air or artillery were not used well.
 
As for sources
Most reliable is this
ACIG
 
Persian Cats (IIAF Tomcats in action)
 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 05:48
The Iranian airforce was mothballed after the revolution and all of Iran's Tomcats were sabotaged by the Americans before they left. Iran's 5:1 shoot down rate does not indicate Iraqi air superiority,far from it, because their losses were so high they resorted to bombing soft civilian targets.
 
I think you should watch this, because your take on the Iran-Iraq war seems to be tainted by the usual nonsense in the media, such as Iran won with human wave attacks.  Everyone forgets Iran had two armies.
 
 
Iraqis they had no air cover when they invaded according to this documentary and Iran carried out 150 sorties per day! 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 08:39
Originally posted by Sparten

Iran only came out of it due to Iraqi exhaustion and the fighting determination of Iranian volunteers. Armour, air or artillery were not used well.
Good point about the Iranian volunteers.
 
The reason why Iranian why armour, air and artillery were not used well was due to lack of supply rather than fundamental misunderstandings by Iranian regular military officers.
 
The Ayatollah's rages against the "twin great satans of The West and Soviet bloc" left China and North Korea as Iran's sole supplier of weapons.  Chinese weapons of the 1980s were only crude copies of early Soviet models.
Originally posted by Zagros

The Iranian airforce was mothballed after the revolution and all of Iran's Tomcats were sabotaged by the Americans before they left.  
That seems like a conspiracy theory.  The USA just quit providing spare parts (very understandable).  Tomcats, even by U.S. standards, are very complex, high maintenance aircraft that need precison parts.   With 20/20 hindsight, it would have been better if Iran had bought more F-5 Freedom Fighters.   These planes were designed for easy maintenance, spares could be bought from Asian countries and were far easier to manufacture in Iran.     
 
Originally posted by Zagros

your take on the Iran-Iraq war seems to be tainted by the usual nonsense in the media, such as Iran won with human wave attacks.  Everyone forgets Iran had two armies.
For everyone victory like the Faw Penninsula that skillfully used conventional light infantry tactics with great improvisations to compensate for lack of SAMS etc,  there were several Mullah inspired or Mullah led human wave attacks such as the operation "Karbala" offensives. (I think that was the name used)  
Originally posted by malizai_

    1. Israel verse Arabs in 1956, 1967, 1973
    2.  Pakistan verse India encouters
 
  
 
Originally posted by malizai_

 I think for #1 and 2 it would be a case of better planning and strategy. I think it is very hard to make the case for best pilots, when equipment disparity and the inability to provide resources for training are considered.
In regards to the Arab-Israeli wars, there was not an equipment disparity in 1956,1967,1973. (Especially the first two wars).  Israel was often flying basic French models with an irregular supply of spares due to changing French policies.  In 1973, Soviet equipment was still roughly equal to U.S. equipment.   The clear Israeli technical advantage did not come until Lebanon in 1982.  Even still, it took alot of pilot skill for Israel to obtain the incredibly lopsided kill ratio of Syrian verse Israeli air encounters. (80-1?)   
 
Likewise, Israel and the Arabs has the same equivelant recesources.  USSR supplied hundreds of advisors to Arab states where the west did not provide any advisors to Israel.  Israelis had to develop air tactics and skills on their own.


Edited by Cryptic - 10-Mar-2007 at 09:10
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