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Columbus, Italian...or not? |
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Guests 
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 Topic: Columbus, Italian...or not?Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 21:40 |
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Columbus was Amerindian
His real name was Quetzalcoatl
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Frederick Roger
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Joined: 09-Jan-2005 Location: Portugal Online Status: Offline Posts: 658 |
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Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 06:06 |
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Ok, so far I believe we can all agree he was not extraterrestrial. No decent martian would miss seeing the American continent on his aproach to Earth.
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Tyranos
Shogun 
Joined: 01-Oct-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 21:16 |
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Thats not accurate at all dont be foolish. Italy has been the name of the nation since before the time of Augustus, its on all official documents and coinage striaght through the Rome period and before and after. Italy was just made up of city states, much like Hellas was. Central government came with the Romans(SPQR), and again with the Reunification.
Italus (or Italos) was a legendary king of the Siciles , who were among the earliest inhabitants of Italy. According to Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War, Italy got its name from this Italus figure:
___________ Christopher Columbus was Italian. Edited by Tyranos - 02-Oct-2007 at 21:19 |
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Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 21:35 |
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Perhaps Christopher Columbus was Italian. I doubt, though that Cristobal Colon was... |
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Tyranos
Shogun
Joined: 01-Oct-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 21:55 |
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Columbus DNA evidence inconclusiveThe only established present-day heir to Christopher Columbus says the navigator and admiral was born in the northern Italian port city of Genoa.
Spanish nobleman Cristobal Colon XX says despite inconclusive DNA evidence, his famed relative was not of noble Spanish or Catalan origin, the Italian news agency ANSA reports.
DNA comparisons from Columbus' bones, those of his two sons and other people with the same last name over the centuries have not proved Columbus was actually Spanish, a University of Granada genetics lab in Spain told ANSA. "There are many theories about his birth, and new claims seem to come out every day," Colon said. One claim by an Italian historian alleges Columbus was the illegitimate son of a Roman noblewoman and a young man who later became pope. But Colon says he has no doubt the explorer "was the son of lowly Genoese wool trader and innkeeper Domenico Colombo." Many countries commemorate Columbus' 1492 arrival in the New World Thursday. Edited by Tyranos - 02-Oct-2007 at 21:56 |
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pekau
Caliph 
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 03-Oct-2007 at 00:45 |
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And the truth comes out!!!!.....???
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Reginmund
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Joined: 08-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1943 |
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Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 15:51 |
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The commonly held view is that he was a son of a weaver from Genoa, and as such his identity would be Genoese and Christian. For him the Italian identity would be meaningless so there's no point in shoving it over his head.
The other theories are mostly based on wishful thinking and nationalism, since Columbus is such a hero-figure to many people are eager to lay claim to him, and thus there are theories of him being both Spanish, Portuguese, French and Danish/Norwegian, but all of these cases are weak.
Red hair? That's a new one to me, I always read he had blonde hair, which is also how he appears in the more believable of his portraits (believable because they resemble each other and correspond with how written sources describe him).
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Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 17:08 |
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The important point is that Columbus was an employee of Queen Isabella of Castille.
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 04:51 |
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What's more important is that he reached Latin America. Otherwise, we won't be making this discussion.
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gcle2003
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Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 13:38 |
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Nobody's mentioned the fact that the statue of Columbus in Barcelona is pointing towards Italy, though possibly a bit to the south: I didn't have a compass with me. Since it's not pointing to where he went, it must be pointing to where he came from.
The people of Barcelona put the statue up because they thought he was Catalan, which may be why he has his back to Spain.
I've also seen it suggested, but not so far here, that he was born in the boat taking his parents, who were of course Jewish though they claimed to have converted, from Spain to Genoa to escape persecution.
That would make him a Spanish (Castilian? Aragonese? Catalan?) Jew born on an Italian boat, which would be Italian territory and make him Italian as well. Of course what then, ethnically, one means by 'Spanish' or 'Italian' is a subject too long to pursue here.
Edited by gcle2003 - 05-Oct-2007 at 13:41 |
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Reginmund
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 17:09 |
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Important in itself, but says nothing about his ethnic background, which is the question at hand.
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 18:20 |
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Yes, it says.
He was Spaniard either by birth or addoption
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Tyranos
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Joined: 01-Oct-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 19:08 |
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Actually alternate "ethnic" theories only arise via Nationalism and Politics, the claiming that he was Nordic or Germanic really started it all, simply because some accounts(true or not) claimed he was fair complexioned. This is like the questioning Beethoven's Germaness, because he was dark complexioned, some activist go as far as claiming him as African(Negroid) influenced. This is also rather like asking if the "Olmecs were Africans " or was "Hannibal Barca Black African"?! Edited by Tyranos - 05-Oct-2007 at 19:22 |
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Reginmund
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 22:35 |
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Agreed. Not like there aren't plenty of blonde Italians anyhow, anyone who's been to the north knows as much.
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 22:46 |
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By the way, it is curious the fascination with Columbus outside the Hispanic world.
Between us, Columbus has a dual character. He is both:
(1) a central figure in history, because his project changed the world (particularly our world)
(2) a criminal and incompetent, brough in chains to Spain because its crimes against both Spaniard colonialist and Amerindians...
 (Columbus in chains)
That's why "Columbus Day" is not celebrated in the Hispanic countries but rather, October 12th is the day of the "Hispanic people", or "Day of the Race" like we say, which could be translated like the melting pot, that started that day... or nine months afterwards like some people say.
Edited by pinguin - 05-Oct-2007 at 22:52 |
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Tyranos
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Joined: 01-Oct-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 23:37 |
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Actually he's been used as scapegoat by many historians and even the then Spanish government(which was very much corrupt). Many pro-Mongolist,Nativists and Amerindian activists hate Columbus, primarily many Communists organizations and governments in the Americas. Many places all over the globe are named in his honor, numerious places in the USA as well. Edited by Tyranos - 05-Oct-2007 at 23:42 |
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Posted: 05-Oct-2007 at 23:47 |
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The Spanish government was a lot less corrupt than Admiral Columbus and the conquestadors. Besides, corruption was widespread in Europe those days, and if you don't believe it just watch out how England was doing at the same time The fact is Columbus administered the island of Hispaniola, and there he was a disaster. He was accused of acting as a dictator, executing spaniards and killing Indians.
However, something that nobody forgets to Columbus is a petty crime. He is accused of robbing the prize of whom saw land first. Rodrigo de Triana saw land the first, but Columbus claim he had found it before and kept the prize.... He was so ambitious and selfish and that event shows him very clearly.
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Tyranos
Shogun
Joined: 01-Oct-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 01:09 |
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Spanish atrocities in the americas did not end with Columbus being arrested and sent back to Spain, he was actually legal and within Christian moral guidlines. Do some more reading, your duel Pro-Spanish and Pro-Amerindian stances often cloud you up, Pinquin. Why dont you bring up Torquemada or Corts is a bit interesting.
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 02:40 |
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I didn't say so. It is a personal attack, perhaps.
Again. It seems you got personal. By the way, have you read the paper I ask you to read?
In any case. Yes, I am pro-Spanish and pro-Amerindian and there is no contradiction on that. That's the identity of Latin Americans and is nothing special, except for outsiders, anyway.
Besides, I lived in Canada (your culture). A country were a gringo friend of mine warned me to be careful about Indians in these words. I had at that time a 4 years old son and he played with a Canadian friend his age:
- Don't you notice, Omar, your son is playing with that child?
- What about it? - I asked
- He is an Indian!
- So?
- You should not allow your son to play with Indians?
- Why not? - I answer - We are Indians as well!
Does this dialog sounds familiar to you? That's your culture.
See yourself before critizing others, please.
What do you want to know about them, fellow?
Torquemada was never in the Americas. Corts establish a society in Mexico were Indians weren't excluded... Unlike what happened in the British paradyse of North America that become the tomb for the Indians!
By the way, do you know anything else about the history of Hispanic America beside what is teach at school according to the british-mentality cannon? I mean, are you a follower of the "Black legend" and "Catholic" hater?
I bet you don't even read Spanish. Otherwise, I could give you some sources that can enlight you.
Edited by pinguin - 06-Oct-2007 at 05:12 |
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gcle2003
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Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 13:24 |
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Bad choice of date. In 1492 England was going through a period of much improved administration, getting rid of the corruption of families like the Woodvilles, as Henry VII brought the nobles to heel after the end of the Wars of the Roses.
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