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Columbus, Italian...or not? |
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 Topic: Columbus, Italian...or not?Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:32 |
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In Spain, Germanic peoples are not unknown either. Queen Isabella was blond and green eyed, for example. And in places like Galicia and northern Spain the Celt and Gaul blood is abundant. Germans themselves invaded Spain during the middle ages. Even the last Moor ruler of Spain was blond! So, the fact the guy was light doesn't show he wasn't Spaniard at all. Pinguin
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SearchAndDestroy
Caliph 
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:57 |
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Even Visigoths controled the Eastern parts of Spain in around 500 ad, no? But did the Germanics of Red Hair? I'm sure the Lombards had brown hair, but they are only described as Blonde, but they did settle Italy pretty well. |
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:29 |
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I guess Celts, rather than germans. Although not widespread, red hair people also exist in the Spanish and Hispanic populations. They are called "copper heads" (cabezas de cobre). You even find them in the literature.
Pinguin
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Serge L
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Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 485 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:46 |
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This web-page is quite interesting and wel done, on this subject:
http://www.answers.com/topic/origin-theories-of-christopher-columbus |
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SearchAndDestroy
Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:19 |
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Going by that site, it seems there is more proof of him being Genoese, which is already widely excepted. And why was this put in Questions and Answers, I wanted a discussion on the subject, not just a answer. I also put it in the cultural area because it was about how it'd effect Italian Americans too. Alot of Italian Americans see this as our holiday, and our only one. Sort of like Saint Patrick's Day, they get a Irish themed Parade.
And that site you showed us Serge, and I thank you for posting it, also shows that cultural battle.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:25 |
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It is funny but as an Hispanic (by culture and ancestry) I don't care much if Columbus was Italian, Portuguese or Spanish.
The important thing is that he was working for the Spanish crown, that his main supporters were the Pinzon brothers, excelent sailors themselves, and that all the crew was Spanish. So, for better or worst, good or evil, the achievements of Columbus were Spain's.
Pinguin
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:37 |
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But he is said to be of Italian Origin and is the one credited for the Discovery. Most people say who discovered America, the answer they will most likely say is Columbus, not Spain. And thats part of the reason people of Italian Origin says he's the Italian peoples hero.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Frederick Roger
Colonel 
Joined: 09-Jan-2005 Location: Portugal Online Status: Offline Posts: 658 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:40 |
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That makes two of us (even though I'm not Hispanic
 ).
Riiiiiight. This is where we disagree...  Edited by Frederick Roger - 11-Mar-2007 at 13:41 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:56 |
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Well, remember that the guy that "discovered" the Americas was not even Columbus but Rodrigo de Triana
 .Columbus was an employee of the Spanish crown, and he wouldn't have succed without the help of Queen Isabella, the Pinzon brothers, the financists and the crew. Attributing to Italy an action done by Spaniards is just a curious fantasy.
Pinguin
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:00 |
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Not by mainstreams views. The point is though that the Leader of the expedition is seen as a Italian. In the US Columbus day is seen as the one day for Italian Americans to show pride in their ancestry.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:05 |
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Curious idea, indeed. The ones that should celebrate are the Spaniards abroad. But they don't because they know Columbus discovery produce a sad impact in the populations of the Americas. Anyways, in Latin America we call it the "Day of the Race", and it is in honour of the ancestors of our peoples, and includes Natives, Spaniards, Europeans and Africans. Sorry, but nobody will celebrate an Italian that day
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:29 |
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Whats so funny about that? Besides, I'm talking about the Holiday in the US. If he is Italian, I think it is something Italians should celebrate, because it was him who got the mission going. He went to a number of people for help, and it was the Spanish who agreed with him. So if he is Italian, it was his idea to get things going, and it was his leadership who got them there, though it was sort of a mistake that they found themselves in the Americas.
So, such a explorer is seen as a Icon by his birth country. And when people share a heritage with such a Icon, they like to celebrate that haeritage.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:32 |
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Well, as you know, it is not really clear he was Italian at all
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Perhaps Italians should find a less shaky figure to celebrate. What about Americo Vespucci or the birthday of Leonardo Da Vinci?
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:45 |
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at eh moment he is wdely seen as Italian, and all other theories just question it. Atleast thats what I get from reading the site Serge offered. Columbus day is already seen as Italian though, so why search for another when the main icon is already seen that way? I was questioning it in hte beginning because of that show, which that site talks about. And I question it because this day is seen as an Italian cultural day. |
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:53 |
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Whatever. As we say in Spanish "each crazy with its own topic" |
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Serge L
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Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 485 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:36 |
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Why, don't you have people of Italian origin in Chile, or in the other Latin american countries?
Yes, I agree with you. Columbus could be important for Italian-Americans, since his figure sort of connects their two countries, so to say. He is not considered a national hero here (well, maybe in Genoa, local airport is entitled to him, for instance). However, Columbus really was quite a fanatic, a stubborn men who was convinced that earth were a lot smaller then it really was, despite the opinion of his time scientists, who died believing he reached India, and left as legacy the command to his heir to finance a new crusade to conquer Jerusalem (luckily his heir was a lot wiser than he was).Indeed in my opinion the one who should be celebrated for the discover of America is Vespucci, (who, BTW, was also Italian  ). |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:11 |
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Yes we do. You can count me as one fellow that have Italian ancestors too
 . No kidding. Italians came in mass to Latin America. One in two Italians that went to the Americas came here down south.
Yes, Indeed. Vespucci was Italian, Charles V was Austrian, Ambrosio O'Higgins was Irish and "El Greco" was Greek. All of them very famous Spaniards that had the bad lack to be born abroad
.And Columbus was a proud "Almirante de la Mar Oceano" (Written in Spanish, of course). Finally, It is funny that I can read directly the writings of the Admirald Colon and Italians can't
 Regards,
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 11-Mar-2007 at 20:11 |
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:21 |
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Thanks Serge for the insite, I was going to post how Italians felt about him, but now I don't have to. lol
Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 11-Mar-2007 at 20:23 |
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:48 |
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In Brazil there are quite a lot Italian descendents too. I don't know how many. But must be one of the largest group in the white majority of that country. Perhaps there are more descendents of Italians in Brazil than Italians on Italy. Is my guess.
But in the case of Argentina the case is clear. Most people there descend of Italians! If you want to see a country that comes close to be a clone of Italy in the Americas, Argentina is the place to see. However, you can find Italians all over the Americas, from Mexico to Dominican Republic or Paraguay. Nothing strange for us.
In Chile, most Italian descendents don't speak Italian in daily life at all. Besides, they have already intermarry with the rest. However, once in a while they still remember that land of theirs ancestors.
You won't believe me but Italy is a very loved place in Latin America. We love the little town life and the Italians songs. And the way they enjoy life. Sometimes even more than tragical Spain with its bullfighting and backwardness.
There are some Squolas Italianas (Italian schools), though, in every city, where kids (not necesarily Italians) learn to speak that language since young. In here the "Italian colony" has a soccer team called Audax Italiano, and we have several figures of that origin. Including a famous TV reporter that cry of happiness every time the squadra azurra (blue team: Italy soccer selection) wins
. He is called Pedro Carcuro.Pinguin Edited by pinguin - 11-Mar-2007 at 20:49 |
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Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2728 |
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:55 |
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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