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Iraq War: What went wrong?
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JuMong View Drop Down
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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iraq War: What went wrong?
    Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 21:53
Funny, no topic about Iraq?

Iraq War will probably go down in history as one of the greatest disaster for America. Right up there with Vietnam War. George Bush is simply one of the worst Presidents that America has ever produced.

What do you think went wrong with this war?







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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 22:01
America is not being someone that Iraqi or anyone that could trust. They came as liberators, but remember the video clip of the Allied soldiers doing to the Iraqi people?
 
I think the worst mistake is not being able to give Iraqi people what they wanted. Napoleon may have been more cruel than Bush, but he was popular in France. Why? Because despite his dictatorship that France swore to destory, he was able to give French what they wanted. Security, economical stability and order. America promised end to Saddam Hussein's cruel regime, and when that was fulfilled... Americans were hailed as heroes.
 
But now, Iraqi want peace and want to handle their business alone. They don't want more deaths. But Americans stayed, and continued to hunt down terrorists and abusing Iraqi people. Their demand is not met, so Iraqi are angry.
     
   
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 05:02
They planned the invasion well and executed it superbly. What they didn't do was implement a comprehensive plan for the occupation and period in which the country made a transition to a successful and friendly nation state. The reason they did not do this is they ingenuously assumed the Iraqis really did hate Saddam and would much prefer the bold and courageous Coalition to "liberate" them. They underestimated loyalty to the local ruler, they overestimated how charismatic Bush and America is to the rest of the world at present.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 11:01
It has gone exactly to plan going by AEI standards, and fromt hat body is where the Bush administration draws most of its military policy decision.

Don't think for one minute that the Americans were so stupid as to allow the current situation in Iraq to unfold through incompetence. I remember at th ebeginning of the occupation I was thinking what the hell are they doing disbanding all of the state apparatus and not guarding any key infrastructure, if some layman like me identified what was going wrong so early, then you can be sure as a polar bear on a cold day those at the top did too. My suspicions were confirmed after hearing of Bush's latest AEI speech.

No, no accident, the aim is to create a bunch of unviable mini states who pose no threat or competition to Western interests, it's the old English and imperial/communist Russian plan of divide and rule reincarnated. The Americans are here to finish the job the English and Russians started but could not finish.

Edited by Zagros - 26-Feb-2007 at 11:04
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 11:10

They invaded a country. That was what went wrong. Any people that respect themselves will fight invaders, no matter what cause brought them there. And no matter how strong they are.

It just a matter of time before Americans realize they can't win. Too much money wasted, or too many soldiers dead. They will be called home and Iraq will be worst than at the beginning.
 
Then hollywood will start producing movies about how much poor American soldiers suffered in there. Perhaps even a new release of the hippie movement would unfold.
 
No one ever will remember Iraqui civilians amputees and dead. No one remember that 2 million vietnamese died in Vietnam, or that children are still been born there with defects because the orange agent.
 
Pinguin
 
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 13:17
It's another guerilla warfare.Even the greatest superpower cannot handle it very easily if the guerillas are decisive to win.In a guerilla warfare there is no central military command,so the enemy can be everywhere,mainly mixed among civilians.The only way to quickly win is to wipe out the entire population.And Americans are not Nazis.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 19:59
Or not yet, anyway...
     
   
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 20:32
Based on the excellent book Fiasco, the U.S. Misadventure in Iraq the following went wrong in Iraq....
 
1.  A Secretary of Defense thinks he is a Geo/political/military genius. He ignores military advice and orders the invasion with 150,000 troops.  Generals had asked for 350,000.  U.S forces dont have "force of mass", a key U.S. doctrine.  This same genius makes no plans for post war Iraq and ridicules advice that plans must be made
 
2. A senior military commander does not address post occupation difficulties.  Instead he retires and boasts of book contracts.  Meanwhile, troops in Baghdad are an exhausted heavy divison.  They have no orders, are not trained / comfortable with anti looting foot patrols.  Baghdad burns for weeks. 
 
3.  Another civilian genius with a fondness for imperial titles arrive in Baghdad.  He ignores military advice and  systematically fires 300,000 "Baathist" Iraqi soldiers and 50,000 civil servants.  Civil Servants in Arab countries perform functions that private industry does in USA.  Dismissed Iraqi ex-soldiers get pissed... and then they get weapons.
 
4. To replace the Iraqis, thousands of fresh junior geniuses are flown in.  A planner with years in banking expereince in developing nations is shocked when most of his "colleagues" are recent university graduates (at best).  Many appear to have been recruited solely based on their affiliation with certain political or religous groups.   Baghdad still burns and is now with out lights and sewage. 
 
5. The insurgency grows.  A new U.S. Senior commander has difficulty understanding the socio/economic/religous/political complexities of the situation and does not give alot of guidiance.  U.S. Divisional commanders then take action independently.  Some of this action is counter productive.
 
My solution to Iraq is to build a time machine.  If Iraq still needs invading (which it will not), hire some British, French and Ottoman colonial administrators from  their respective empire's glory days.  Then follow their advice.


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Feb-2007 at 20:58
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 17:58
Many things went wrong... what people need to be doing now (and what American politicians don't want to do) is brainstorm ways to make it better. Personally, I think "The Surge" is a good idea, and I think US troops need to get more involved in putting an end to this civil war. I think General Petraeus, if left alone by the politicians, has a good a chance as anybody of stabilizing the Baghdad region and going after the insurgents (who target Iraqi civilians more often than they target American troops). If his troops are able to get their boots muddy enough, and round up these insurgents, I think they can stabilize the region, help the Iraqis to form a stable government, and then pull-out without leaving a seething, bloody mess behind them. I personally believe that just pulling out will leave the Iraqi people in an untenable situation, and pre-mature withdrawal will lead to Iraq becoming one of the bloodiest civil genocides ever enacted. Stability and order are needed in the region, and right now the US military is the only chance the Iraqi people have to attain these seemingly distant goals.
Cheers

PS- War-bashing is fairly lame and tired. Also, criticism is the easiest of all art forms. True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.

PPS- I don't know if the US should have even gone in at all, but I know that they did, they're there, and now the Iraqi people need some solutions.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 05:09
Originally posted by Brian J True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.
[/QUOTE

 
Thats probably the best sentence ive seen in a while.
 
As far
 
Thats probably the best sentence ive seen in a while.
 
As far as Iraq, hindsight is always 20/20. It is quite pointless to waste time on what should not have been done than what should be done about the current situation.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 06:38
Originally posted by Jackson

Originally posted by Brian J Checco

 True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.
 
Thats probably the best sentence ive seen in a while.
 
As far as Iraq, hindsight is always 20/20. It is quite pointless to waste time on what should not have been done than what should be done about the current situation.
 
This is true, saying "I told you so" is not solving any problems. On the other hand: Telling those who were against the war from the start that they should find a solution for the mess is not fair either. They saw a way to prevent the mess (not going), that does not mean they should see a way to solve it. That is the job of the one who made the mess.
 
When somebody tells you not to walk down the stairs with the large wobbly pile of plates and you do it anyway, it is you who is going to be picking up the shards.
 
Personally I cannot see any good solution to the problem, which is why I still think the problem should have been avoided in the first place. Of course there are a lot of much smarter people than me, and someone might have seen a solution before they started, but I did not have the impression anyone in the US government did.
 
Dictatures should be overthrown from the inside out. The US should have gone subtle and underground. I agree with Pinguin. When another country invades your country, you fight back. I see little surprise there. If the US should invade my country because they disagree with the government I would too.
 
But now that the US are there, they cannot just leave. If they withdraw too fast, true and proper anarchy will ensue. They are going to have to sit it out.
 


Edited by Aelfgifu - 08-Mar-2007 at 06:40

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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 09:39
Originally posted by Brian J Checco


PS- War-bashing is fairly lame and tired. Also, criticism is the easiest of all art forms. True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.
So there are no valid criticisms regarding the concpet of invading Iraq nor the way in which the war was conducted once it started?  
 
Sure, some citicism is not valid and is 20/20 hindsight, but avoidable mistakes caused by hubris and arrogance are inexcusable.   Criticism of these mistakes is not only valid, it is needed or else these same hubris based mistakes will be repeated.   And with the Iraq war, there was a series of avoidable mistakes based on hubris and arrogance.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 08-Mar-2007 at 09:41
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:18
Cryptic,
 
They believe in understanding the causes of a current situation for future guidance but exercise the belief selectively.
 
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:32
Originally posted by Brian J Checco

Many things went wrong... what people need to be doing now (and what American politicians don't want to do) is brainstorm ways to make it better

PS- War-bashing is fairly lame and tired. Also, criticism is the easiest of all art forms. True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.

PPS- I don't know if the US should have even gone in at all, but I know that they did, they're there, and now the Iraqi people need some solutions.
 
Brian, it's a war up there, not a company meeting, you can't have a brainstorm. Who do you call for the meeting?
 
True thinkers do not brainstorm solutions, they find them or they don't.  The fact that they do it as single individuals or as a group is irrelevant.
 
This is not about thinking, it's about controlling what's happening out there.
 
The Iraqi people needs no solutions they just need to get back to a normal life. I bet that life was far "normal" under Saddam than now. Moral values and human rights and so on and so on are not the firs thing one thinks of when he is starving or his house is bombed or he can't be sure he would survive a walk dowtown.
The fact is that the US is there and the solution is extreme: either get out and get blamed for everything or get the tanks rolling allover the place hoping that nothing remains to fight back.
 
What about Iran or Syria? Are they real threats or just another excuse to justify a military intervention of the US?
 
If the US will invade Iran and things get ugly what are we supposed to do? Find solutions for the US people being unable to censor their leaders?


Edited by Cezar - 08-Mar-2007 at 13:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:24

no rules of engegement
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:29
Originally posted by Cezar

Originally posted by Brian J Checco

Many things went wrong... what people need to be doing now (and what American politicians don't want to do) is brainstorm ways to make it better

PS- War-bashing is fairly lame and tired. Also, criticism is the easiest of all art forms. True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.

PPS- I don't know if the US should have even gone in at all, but I know that they did, they're there, and now the Iraqi people need some solutions.
 
Brian, it's a war up there, not a company meeting, you can't have a brainstorm. Who do you call for the meeting?
 
True thinkers do not brainstorm solutions, they find them or they don't.  The fact that they do it as single individuals or as a group is irrelevant.
 
This is not about thinking, it's about controlling what's happening out there.
 
 
Of course it is not a company meeting but there is a problem and there has to be resolve.
 
Also, True thinkers do brainstorm, whether with themselves or with a group, thinking is brainstorming. Otherwise you would not be thinking if you were not brainstorming. Solutions are not absolute. You just do not "find them or dont". This would leave me to believe that if an individual found a solution then he was probably thinking on how to solve it first. With himself or with a group is irrelevant.
 
The case of Iraq is no different. Iraq has various factions who all have but one goal, control. This leads us to another point, if these factions want control, what do they want control of? More land? More resources? More security? Majority of power in the newly established government? I am sure many of these factions have different needs that they think need to be met. But without open dialogue, none of these needs can be met if they fail to inform what they actually need. Of course, these 'needs' have to be reasonable for them to be considered.
 
You see, the irony of this small forum debate is that we are opening up dialogue to find the problem and a solution. Whether or not this debate could pinpoint a problem or solution is highly unlikely. But the topic of this post is "Iraq War: What went wrong?" Which to me, seems like an invitation to opening dialogue and as you know, open dialogue is brainstorming as aforementioned. If the title of this post does not signify the original poster's intent, frankly, I do not know what does
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:38
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Brian J Checco


PS- War-bashing is fairly lame and tired. Also, criticism is the easiest of all art forms. True thinkers brainstorm solutions, rather than merely calling the opposition to task for mistakes.
So there are no valid criticisms regarding the concpet of invading Iraq nor the way in which the war was conducted once it started?  
 
Sure, some citicism is not valid and is 20/20 hindsight, but avoidable mistakes caused by hubris and arrogance are inexcusable.   Criticism of these mistakes is not only valid, it is needed or else these same hubris based mistakes will be repeated.   And with the Iraq war, there was a series of avoidable mistakes based on hubris and arrogance.
 
 
 
I agree completely and with any hope the mistakes made will be avoided in the future by looking to the past (assuming a similiar situation occurs)
 
The unfortunate thing is that some of the problems that we have in the region were caused by not studying the interests of the factions in that region. When these factions make a demand for a need that they think needs to be met and we cannot fulfill that supposed need, all hell breaks loose and open dialogue is shutdown.
 
Very tough situation to be in.


Edited by Jackson - 08-Mar-2007 at 15:38
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 22:34
Bush and his cronies is what went wrong!
 
Even Bush senior knew better that to try and invade Iraq and control it. His people came to the conclusion that it was impossible to control such a large vast country with the varying ethnic and religious groups. The best thing to do was to just control Iraq and not allow Saddam a chance to enter the Kurdish area or the southern Iranian influenced area.
 
Next, there was never any occupation strategy. The only thing the Americans planned on was to protect the oil and the Oil industry. All the other government buildings, museums, weapons depots, etc, were all left unprotected. It showed exactly why the war was started.
 
So to sum it up BUSH and his Cronies were the problem!
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 18:21
Alright, someone keeps deleting my posts. I've posted on this thread three times, and only one shows up. Bogus...
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 23:02
Originally posted by Brian J Checco

Alright, someone keeps deleting my posts. I've posted on this thread three times, and only one shows up. Bogus...
It is probably the server.  I have lost a few posts as well.  Only moderators can delete posts and I am sure they would have told you if they did.
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