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the fall of Constantinople

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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the fall of Constantinople
    Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 15:59

now, If all city fought against ottomans, what is problem with enslaving them.

Anyway, ottomans had slaves too. This is true, but It was not  widespread. So I am not sure, what did ottomans do with so much greek slave. I should also add, ottomans generally buy slaves from others(they did not capture them.), and most of ottoman slaves were comes from  the caucasus.

Slavery of orthodox was nothing more than exaggeration.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 01:49
many of the slaves ended up on estates and put into a fuedal system. They had the right under Islamic law to take slaves and loot and pillage for three days if a city or people resisted. The Greeks had great courage to defend the city a such great odds. I will post what Mehmet said to his men before the final attack on Constantinople.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 02:39
I think we need to distinguish between the more conventional meaning of slaves from serfs. I understood that the typical rural Greek (or any other Christian) was a kind of serf, and that it was this state of being that we describe as being enslaved to

Edited by Leonidas - 16-Mar-2007 at 02:52
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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 04:18
The Greeks had great courage to defend the city a such great odds.
 
I should add odds were not such bad. Siegers of a castle always need more men than defenders. 1 vs 10 was not such a bad odd for world most  protected castle.(at that times)  It is true, If  a city does not surrender, It is pillaged three day, Fatih have no right to interfere this but not all city captivated.
 
Also what he was talking about is not war situation but
 
the enslaved Orthodox population of Greece and Ottoman empire,
 
this is not true.
 
I think we need to distinguish between the more conventional meaning of slaves from serfs. I understood that the typical rural Greek (or any other Christian) was a kind of serf, and that it was this state of being that we describe as being enslaved to
 
Serf is not true word too. They are treated different a little bad, but not like serf.
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 05:19
If we have an Italian reading this I need a verification on a theory.

Constantinupolis, fell 1453. I've heard that Italian numerologists coined number 13 as unlucky because 1 + 4 + 5 + 3 = 13. Is that true?


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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 09:59
Originally posted by Flipper

If we have an Italian reading this I need a verification on a theory.

Constantinupolis, fell 1453. I've heard that Italian numerologists coined number 13 as unlucky because 1 + 4 + 5 + 3 = 13. Is that true?
 
 
Never heard before of that.
 
Really in Italy the unlucky number is 17. Why? Probably because the Roman numeral XVII (that is 17) is an anagram of the word VIXI, which in Latin literally  means "I have lived" that is a euphemistic way of saying that a person is dead.
 
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 10:49
I only heard 13 was unlucky because that was the day the Templars were arrested. Which happen to be Friday, and thats how we supposedly got Friday the 12th as a bad unlucky day. It can be if your supersticious, but I tend to think it was just a bad day for the Templars.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 12:32
There are so many mis-conceptions, disinformation and outright ridiculous stories regarding the early Ottoman expansion.
 
Being "Ghazi's", this idea that they were some religous zeolet puritanical extremists on a mission to enslave all the people of Byzantines lands is mumbo-jumbo.
 
The early Ottoman's were bands of Turkmens who had a mystical view of Islam, mixed with their Shamanic culture and pragmatist mindsets when it came to pollitics, they sucessfully one of the public's hearts and minds.
 
The Christian peasantry felt oppressed by the Roman-Byzantine Empire which relied solely on the support of the land-owning aristocracy which clamped down on the lower classes, the Empire was in decay, it had many problems, the people's problems wern't being adressed.
 
Then these new people came, they would come with their riches to the Greek villages in Summer sell these and disappear in the Winter.
 
Later these Turks spiritual sufi leaders started roaming the country side winning enourmous support, claiming everybody is equal under god, that Christian and Muslim have the same god, that the poor should unite against the rich.
 
Basically it was a class war and many Greeks joined the early Ottomans, famous warriors like "Kose Mihal" his clan and his "Akritoi" warriors, they were later known at Mihalogulari or the Malkocogullari, even leaders like Ghazi Evren were later named Evrenos by the local Greeks.
 
What some people fail to realise is that alot of the rural Greek population joined the Ottomans in rebellion to their landlords, these people's were mostly uneducated and so didn't leave as much written records, the rich landlords viewed them as treacherous traitors.
 
Turks demanded fewer dues than their previous rulers and in the Balkans offered more freedom especially to persecuted minorities like Jews, Bogomils of Bosnia and Orthodox christians living under Catholic rulers.
 
When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside it like the Venetians did. Yet Ventians don't get half as much stick as what Turks do. 
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 13:19
Originally posted by Bulldog

When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside it like the Venetians did. Yet Ventians don't get half as much stick as what Turks do. 
 
 
The Venetians took part in the defence of Costantinople ...
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 13:37
Hah and a great job they did, everytime they got involved something bad happened to the city LOL
 
Oh and incase you forgot there were Turks defending the city aswell...
 


Edited by Bulldog - 16-Mar-2007 at 13:39
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 14:17
Originally posted by Bulldog

When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside it like the Venetians did.
 
They did more than a fair share and you've acknowledged it before.
Your answer is usally something like "well, we weren't the only ones who did damage", but now it's complete denial.
Just say others did too.  No need for complete denial. Wink
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 14:56
Originally posted by Bulldog

There are so many mis-conceptions, disinformation and outright ridiculous stories regarding the early Ottoman expansion.

Being "Ghazi's", this idea that they were some religous zeolet puritanical extremists on a mission to enslave all the people of Byzantines lands is mumbo-jumbo.


The early Ottoman's were bands of Turkmens who had a mystical view of Islam, mixed with their Shamanic culture and pragmatist mindsets when it came to pollitics, they sucessfully one of the public's hearts and minds.


The Christian peasantry felt oppressed by the Roman-Byzantine Empire which relied solely on the support of the land-owning aristocracy which clamped down on the lower classes, the Empire was in decay, it had many problems, the people's problems wern't being adressed.


Then these new people came, they would come with their richesto the Greek villages in Summer selltheseand disappear in the Winter.


Later these Turks spiritual sufi leadersstarted roaming the country side winning enourmous support, claiming everybody is equal undergod, that Christian and Muslim have the same god,that the poor should unite against the rich.


Basically it was a class war and many Greeks joined the early Ottomans, famous warriors like "Kose Mihal" his clanandhis"Akritoi" warriors, they were later known at Mihalogulari or the Malkocogullari,even leaders like Ghazi Evren were later named Evrenos by the local Greeks.


What some people fail to realise is that alot of the rural Greek population joined the Ottomans in rebellion to their landlords, these people's were mostly uneducated and so didn't leave as much written records, the rich landlords viewed them as treacherous traitors.


Turks demanded fewer dues than their previous rulers and in the Balkans offered more freedom especially to persecuted minorities like Jews, Bogomils of Bosnia and Orthodox christians living under Catholic rulers.


When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside itlike the Venetians did. Yet Ventians don't get half as much stick as what Turks do.


Sources about the destruction of the Ottoman invasion of Byzantine and other lands:

It is compiled in "The Legacy of Jihad; Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims" by Andrew G. Bostom

"Certain phases of Conquest of the Balkan people by the Turks" by Dimitar Angelov

"The Impact of Devshirme on Greek Soceity" by Vasiliki Papoulia


"Greek Christian and Other Accounts of the Muslim Conquests of the Near East." Demetrios Constantelos

"The Law of War; The Jihad" by Majid Khadduri

"A Comtporary Greek Source for the Siege of Constantinople 1453; the Sphrantzes Chronicle." by Geoorge Sprantzes.

"The Fall of Constantinople" by Steven Runciman

What happened in the past does not reflect on the character of Turkish society today and I have great respect for the Turks of Istanbul today but we all must deal with our past. I will admit my pioneer ancestors in America did a great wrong to the Native Americans. The record of the Byzantines or the Crusaders was scarred with evil as well. To qoute a Bible verse, "All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God."

I would like to focus more on the heroic aspect of the defenders of Constantinople and not what evils both sides did in the past. The odds were very much against the Greeks 6,000 to 80-100,000 but yet most of the Byzantines stood to the end along side their Italain allies.

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  Quote Mortazaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 15:02
even at modern times, war bring destruction to cities.
 
Istanbul did not suffered more than other cities.  what ottomans did  is not evil acording to their times.
 
Acording to our times? do we have any country who is not evil acording to our times? should we call every people who attended a war as evil?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 15:22
Im sorry about the confusion that my post has created... Of course i didn't mean that Greeks were slaves but i couldn't find a different word to translate the word wich discribes the situation of Greek population during the Ottoman domination period.
 
Actually, not all the Greeks were suffering from Ottoman cruelty. Those who lived in big cities of the Ottoman Empire , enjoyed a wealthy life (the majority of them as it seems),especially the trade class, wich was the wealthiest between the others.They also had a distinguished position in Ottoman politics because they were  translators and permanent members in the Sultans court .
The problem was spotted in modern Greece and Balkans, where tyrants sprouted like muschrooms. 
 
Anyway, i believe that Eastern Roman empire had two substances: Cultural and humans.
 
I choose the examples of 1204 and 1453.
 
1453 Ottomans: Conquered a semi-destroyed empty city with not much to pillage and destroy... Their Sultan promissed them to do whatever they liked with the poor civilians but NOT destroy the buildings.
 
As it seems from Byzantine - Turkish relationship, Turks had a feeling of respect for the Roman civilization ,they also adopted many points of the Byzantine administrative sytsem.
 
All the promisses for equality of the peasants in front of the God were dust in the wind after their  expansions...
 
 
1204 Latins: They created a blood bath in the most populated city of the time. They had an ultimate hate and complex against the culturaly different
and rich eastern Roman Empire. The amount of the  cultural lost (books ,materials of art, architecture) of their pillaging is incalculable(and of course , lost for ever).
 
Thats why many people of the time(14-15century) - unfortunatelly- believed that the Ottoman domination was "better"  than the Latin one, and were eager to be a part of multi-collective and multi-national Ottoman empire.
 
 
Leonardo said that Venetians helped the defence of Constantinopole against the Ottomas. I think that it wouldn't happened if Giustiniani and his Genoese help wouldn't have arrived in the city...
They were worms into the same apple...
 
Bulldog  said :Oh and incase you forgot there were Turks defending the city aswell...,
 
thats ironical if you consider that the converted to islam children of the Christians were the force which finally entered the city...

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 15:23
Originally posted by Mortazaa

even at modern times, war bring destruction to cities.

Istanbul did not suffered more than other cities. what ottomans did is not evil acording to their times.


Acording to our times? do we have any country who is not evil acording to our times? should we call every people who attended a war as evil?










I agree with you and the destruction of Constantinople was no worse. The Fourth Crudade was horrible as well and a shame on those who claimed to be of the Christian faith. It was forbidden for the lay man to read the Bible so most of these so-called Christians were ignorant of their own religion and what Jesus Christ really said and did. The quote I read from Mehmet the Great just before finally taking the city, on May 29th 1453, was from the examples of Muhammad. After the city was taken and things calmed down Mehmet was quite fair and allowed the Greeks to return to the city but under Dhimmi status, unless they converted to Islam.
In all fairness I would like to find a Turkish source abut the siege of Constantinople so if you can help please let me know.
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  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 15:55
Originally posted by Bulldog

There are so many mis-conceptions, disinformation and outright ridiculous stories regarding the early Ottoman expansion.
 
Being "Ghazi's", this idea that they were some religous zeolet puritanical extremists on a mission to enslave all the people of Byzantines lands is mumbo-jumbo.
 
The early Ottoman's were bands of Turkmens who had a mystical view of Islam, mixed with their Shamanic culture and pragmatist mindsets when it came to pollitics, they sucessfully one of the public's hearts and minds.
 
The Christian peasantry felt oppressed by the Roman-Byzantine Empire which relied solely on the support of the land-owning aristocracy which clamped down on the lower classes, the Empire was in decay, it had many problems, the people's problems wern't being adressed.
 
Then these new people came, they would come with their riches to the Greek villages in Summer sell these and disappear in the Winter.
 
Later these Turks spiritual sufi leaders started roaming the country side winning enourmous support, claiming everybody is equal under god, that Christian and Muslim have the same god, that the poor should unite against the rich.
 
Basically it was a class war and many Greeks joined the early Ottomans, famous warriors like "Kose Mihal" his clan and his "Akritoi" warriors, they were later known at Mihalogulari or the Malkocogullari, even leaders like Ghazi Evren were later named Evrenos by the local Greeks.
 
 
What some people fail to realise is that alot of the rural Greek population joined the Ottomans in rebellion to their landlords, these people's were mostly uneducated and so didn't leave as much written records, the rich landlords viewed them as treacherous traitors.


Well new concept of history ,according to you this period we had a primitive communist uprising of the communist Turks together with the Christian peasantry against the Eastern Romans Emperors.LOL

Bulldog
Turks demanded fewer dues than their previous rulers and in the Balkans offered more freedom especially to persecuted minorities like Jews, Bogomils of Bosnia and Orthodox christians living under Catholic rulers.
 
When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside it like the Venetians did. Yet Ventians don't get half as much stick as what Turks do. 


All these is just a myth of the Turkish history (for internal reasons),and i answered you on this post http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17697&PN=3



Edited by Antioxos - 16-Mar-2007 at 15:58

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 23:17
Originally posted by Flipper If we have an Italian reading this I need a verification on a theory.Constantinupolis, fell 1453. I've heard that Italian numerologists coined number 13 as unlucky because 1 + 4 + 5 + 3 = 13. Is that true?
[/QUOTE




you might want to ask the numbers lady, I heard her on a late night radio show in North America called coast to coast am

www.coasttocoastam.com
http://www.numberslady.com/


you might want to ask the numbers lady, I heard her on a late night radio show in North America called coast to coast am

www.coasttocoastam.com
http://www.numberslady.com/
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 23:31
Originally posted by Bulldog

There are so many mis-conceptions, disinformation and outright ridiculous stories regarding the early Ottoman expansion.

Being "Ghazi's", this idea that they were some religous zeolet puritanical extremists on a mission to enslave all the people of Byzantines lands is mumbo-jumbo.


The early Ottoman's were bands of Turkmens who had a mystical view of Islam, mixed with their Shamanic culture and pragmatist mindsets when it came to pollitics, they sucessfully one of the public's hearts and minds.


The Christian peasantry felt oppressed by the Roman-Byzantine Empire which relied solely on the support of the land-owning aristocracy which clamped down on the lower classes, the Empire was in decay, it had many problems, the people's problems wern't being adressed.


Then these new people came, they would come with their richesto the Greek villages in Summer selltheseand disappear in the Winter.


Later these Turks spiritual sufi leadersstarted roaming the country side winning enourmous support, claiming everybody is equal undergod, that Christian and Muslim have the same god,that the poor should unite against the rich.


Basically it was a class war and many Greeks joined the early Ottomans, famous warriors like "Kose Mihal" his clanandhis"Akritoi" warriors, they were later known at Mihalogulari or the Malkocogullari,even leaders like Ghazi Evren were later named Evrenos by the local Greeks.


What some people fail to realise is that alot of the rural Greek population joined the Ottomans in rebellion to their landlords, these people's were mostly uneducated and so didn't leave as much written records, the rich landlords viewed them as treacherous traitors.


Turks demanded fewer dues than their previous rulers and in the Balkans offered more freedom especially to persecuted minorities like Jews, Bogomils of Bosnia and Orthodox christians living under Catholic rulers.


When Turks took Constantinople they didn't ruin the city, desecrate the Hagia Sophia or sit prostitutes inside itlike the Venetians did. Yet Ventians don't get half as much stick as what Turks do.


All the sources I have read, both primary and secondary ,are contrary to what you say. Only towns, villages and cities who resisted were faced with possible slavery. many of the wealthy Greeks after the fall in 1453 were able to be ransomed.

"Then the Turks ceased killing and began to capture the people for slaves binding men, women and children indiscriminately with ropes."

"Constantine Palaeolugus 1448-1453" by Chedomil Mijatovich
Runciman agrees
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 08:17
Originally posted by eaglecap

The Greeks had great courage to defend the city a such great odds.
 
1- It was not the Greeks, it was the Byzantines, not exactly the same thing, I presume.
 
2- I don't agree that it was on "great odds"...Apart from the fact that Byzantine City State completed its lifespan, Constantinople, with its solid walls and defensible peninsular position both on the land and on the sea, was one of the cities which had the best defensible position on the earth. Did Byzantines fight well with courage? Yes, they did, however that doesn't mean that there were "great odds". 
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 08:27
Originally posted by Athanasios

 
All the promisses for equality of the peasants in front of the God were dust in the wind after their  expansions...
 
 
That is one of the problems with many civilizations, however Ottomans made no racial or religious discriminations in this...This didn't happen at the time they were expanding, it rather began with the corruption on state administration and institutions beginning from 17th century on.


Edited by Kapikulu - 18-Mar-2007 at 08:27
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