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the fall of Constantinople

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the fall of Constantinople
    Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 13:53
Sadly my original post was lost because I accidently hit the delete key.
I am reading 1453; The Holy War for Constantinople and the clash of Islam and the west"
I will have to come back when I have time and repost what I had said but....


I would like to gather sources about this epic battle to write a fictional account about it so if anyone wants to help and be part of this let me know.

The determination of Emperor Constantine, the Byzantine Greeks, and her allies to defend Constantinople is just amazing. For us of Byzantine ancestry it is an honor that our ancestors fought so bravely. I also give much credit to the Italian Gustiniani who helped defend this great city till he was wounded in battle.

must rush to work-
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 14:02
yes but the genuese razza opened the gates of their part for the turks not all italian are so good at that battle 
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 10:20
I cant offer any asistance but this seems the place to ask , Did the Varagian (sp?) guard still exist at the time of the battle?
My peoples tale is written in blood
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 16:28
John Julius Norwich, Roger Crowley and Steven Runciman all provide good accounts of this epic battle.
I will pick up this primary source a the library:
"Contemporary Greek Source for the Siege of Constantinople" and "Immortal Emperor" - Constantine the last Byzantine Emperor.

I wonder if aid from the west would have saved the city? Even if it had I think the Ottoman Turks would have still eventually taken the city.

This battle shows the same tenacity the Greeks had all the way back to ancient times and on to contemparary times such as their fight against the invading Italians during the last great war.

8,000 against 80-100,000
It it had not been for the large canon built by Urban the city might not have fallen. Mehmet almost consider giving up a few times but he wanted to fullfill an old prophecy.

The desire to take Constantinople goes way back but Greek Byzantine fortitude kept them at bay for centuries and good luck.lol

"Every Muslim believed that the Prophet himself would accord a special place in paradise to the first soldier who should force entry into the ancient Christian capital."
Runciman page 79 "The Fall of Constatinople
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 16:50
Originally posted by eaglecap



I would like to gather sources about this epic battle to write a fictional account about it so if anyone wants to help and be part of this let me know.


Can Atilla has a cool clip that depicts the battle. It can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIa-C9bjBo
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:18
Originally posted by bg_turk


Originally posted by eaglecap


I would like to gather sources about this epic battle to write a fictional account about it so if anyone wants to help and be part of this let me know.

Can Atilla has a cool clip that depicts the battle. It can be found here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIa-C9bjBo



Thanks Big Turk- I will watch it again later when I can get sound- incredible

Wow nice Graphic and sounds

Edited by eaglecap - 02-Mar-2007 at 22:55
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 22:00
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 22:33
Wow, I remember that cartoon and video from when I was a kid. Brings back good memories, and at the time I had no idea what they were going on about, it thought it was funny.LOL
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 23:31
The turkish clip was really impressive. I can't understand the lyrics but it creates a nice but a little bitter felling too.
 
I don't really understand why in greece nobody mentions ByzantiumCry.
Almost everybody when are thinking about the past, the first thing that comes in their mind is a period of 300 years B.C. or the Greek revolution of 1821. 2000 years of history in between are magically dissapeared!
 
Anyway, eaglecap we should not forget that the citizens of the city were almost 50000 and if we calculate that 20000 of them were in able to fight and 6000 of them holded sword the time of judgement, well, we cannot depict the whole population as heroes.
As i know from sources, women and children helped for the reconstruction of the walls during the siege, but many young men found excuses of the last moment, not to participate in the battle Angry...So they praid with the monks,the women and children till the turkish sword cut their heds off , painting the floor of Haghia Sophia red... Constantinopolitans were the same 11 centuries, they were not going to be changed in 15c.
 
Nevertheless the determined men who fought on the walls of constantinopole were realy brave, equaly brave to their pagan forefathers who fought in Thermopylae.
 
Now about the Turks. The Sultan has his but upon flamming coal. He had to extract the looks from the throne and he turns them in a new big challenge: The occupation of Constantinopole. Obviously he should not be presented as a souvereign who is guided by a pure religious sentiment for the occupation of the christian capital ,but as a clear-sighted leader which hides a different personality from the one that wants it shows to his fighters(such bloodthirsty etc.etc. stereotypes blah, blah,blah) .
 
 

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 23:56
Good points and many of the sources I have read cover this but it is good to honor our fallen ancestors. I have focused much more, lately, on Byzantine history than pre Greek or ancient Greek although my degree focused on the Bronze Age such as Cycladic and Minoan.
I have been asked to teach one day at the university about the Fall of Constantinople so this is an honor. It is a class about Islam but she wants to cover the fall of constantinople in 1453.

Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 00:31

yes , of course it is honour but the fall of Constantinopole is presented as the 50% of the Byzantine history(the other 50% is about religionDead and stuff).

Well,ok not exactly 50-50, but i've never seen someone in your position to be interested for example, about the era which Theophilos of Amorio ruledDisapprove,and the pro-macedonian dynasty era or even the pro-justinian.

Byzantine history seems to have some significant points(Constantine the Great, Justinian,Basil II , and the trial pack Mazikert/komnenoi/1st crussade,1204,fall of constantinopole)and between them  unknownledge.
Maybe the  points are many but Hey! we are talking about 1100 years of history! There must be many more! I know a little stuff about the whole empireal period genically but my friend who is not that interested to history, he may listen once about Justinian, once about 1453 and thats all!
It is normal for someone to have a wrong image of Byzantium if he's not get into it, on personal research, study books etc.etc.
 
I hope your work will depict the whole period(The fall) with the right way.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 01:44
I have studied the whole range of Byzantine history and in fact one of my favorite books is "The Alexiad of Anna Comnena. I just recently read part of O' Byzantium. For now, my focus is on 1453 but Manzikert and 1204 are key points in our long history that I enjoy reading about.

10:43 pm so soon- ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 03:15
Originally posted by Top Gun

yes but the genuese razza opened the gates of their part for the turks not all italian are so good at that battle 
 
Actually there was no gate left open. It was a small door hidden in the side of the towers that was left open. No one knows who did such a thing. Those small doors were used by the besieged to harass the beseigers. Obviously either someone was paid to do it intentionally or someone just forgot to lock it. I opt for the first option.
 
It is amazing that only 4000 people guarded the wall and defended it, if I remember correctly, for 8 months! The city would not have fell if it wasn't for that small door. The Janisaries were the ones that found it open after they were defeated several times when making their final attacks. They were about to give up when the door was 'found'.
 
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 14:59
Originally posted by Brasidas

Originally posted by Top Gun

yes but the genuese razza opened the gatesof their partfor the turks not all italian are so good at thatbattle


Actually there was no gate left open. It was a small door hidden in the side of the towers that was left open. No one knows who did such a thing. Those small doors were used by the besieged to harass the beseigers. Obviously either someone was paid to do it intentionally or someone just forgot to lock it. I opt for the first option.


It is amazing that only 4000 people guarded the wall and defended it, if I remember correctly, for 8 months! The city would not have fell if it wasn't for that small door. The Janisaries were the ones that found it open after they were defeated several times when making their final attacks. They were about to give up when the door was 'found'.




Yes, it was refered to as the Circus Gate and was spoken about in a so-called prophecy by the Muslims. So much legend has been created about this epic fight that it is really hard to know what is true and what is legend.

Donald M. Nicol talks brings up several legends about the death of the last Emperor Constantine Palaiologos. Did he die fighting in defense of Constantinople or did he escape. I think the evidence supports that he did indeed die in battle.
In a writing by Doukas after 1462 the following account is given"
The Emperor in despair stood, sword in hand and cried out, Is there no Christian here to take my head from me?" For he was abandoned and on his own...It goes on to say a Turk struck him down in battle
Immortal Emperor, Donald Nicol page 85

Did he flee to fight another day or did he fight to the bitter end? I believe he did but being of Byzantine hertiage I might be bias.

When I was in Istanbul I stood on the land walls of old Constantinople and said out loud, "Byzantium O' Byzantium." While I spoke these words I thought of the epic battle of 1453 and about Constantine Palaiologos, the last Emperor of the Romans.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 16:17
Does anyone know about any Turkish sources translated into Engliish about the Fall of Constantinople 1453????
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 16:48
Originally posted by Brasidas

 
Actually there was no gate left open. It was a small door hidden in the side of the towers that was left open. No one knows who did such a thing. Those small doors were used by the besieged to harass the beseigers. Obviously either someone was paid to do it intentionally or someone just forgot to lock it. I opt for the first option. 


Actually the Byzantines made some "parades" outside the walls to reduce the moral of the Ottomans - the time between the battles- . About the little gate, it is likely to had been left opened by the Byz.soldiers while a parade like this took place. 
It is a fact that the main mass of jannisaries get through the city from this little gate.
Who opened this door?...This is an other story...I thing we should stay in the facts. Everybody seeing this from a different angle for his reasons.
For example Dodekatheists say that "orthodox patriarch ordered to open the door, ultra-nationalists and antisemites say that the Jews did it, the main mass believes that a betrayal took place... It doesen't really matters who did it but that it was done...

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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 22:08
Originally posted by Athanasios

The turkish clip was really impressive. I can't understand the lyrics but it creates a nice but a little bitter felling too.
 
I don't really understand why in greece nobody mentions ByzantiumCry.
Almost everybody when are thinking about the past, the first thing that comes in their mind is a period of 300 years B.C. or the Greek revolution of 1821. 2000 years of history in between are magically dissapeared!
 
Anyway, eaglecap we should not forget that the citizens of the city were almost 50000 and if we calculate that 20000 of them were in able to fight and 6000 of them holded sword the time of judgement, well, we cannot depict the whole population as heroes.
As i know from sources, women and children helped for the reconstruction of the walls during the siege, but many young men found excuses of the last moment, not to participate in the battle Angry...So they praid with the monks,the women and children till the turkish sword cut their heds off , painting the floor of Haghia Sophia red... Constantinopolitans were the same 11 centuries, they were not going to be changed in 15c.
 
Nevertheless the determined men who fought on the walls of constantinopole were realy brave, equaly brave to their pagan forefathers who fought in Thermopylae.
 
Now about the Turks. The Sultan has his but upon flamming coal. He had to extract the looks from the throne and he turns them in a new big challenge: The occupation of Constantinopole. Obviously he should not be presented as a souvereign who is guided by a pure religious sentiment for the occupation of the christian capital ,but as a clear-sighted leader which hides a different personality from the one that wants it shows to his fighters(such bloodthirsty etc.etc. stereotypes blah, blah,blah) .
 
 


I would also like to add the 200,00-or-so monks residing in the various monasteries around  what was left of the Byz. Empire at the time. Though it is doubtful what effectiveness untrained troops would've have had, the sheer presence of such abody COULD have made a difference. It's always easier to pray to God than go and spill your blood to defend him. Or maybe the clergy could foresee the priviledged place of the Orthodox church under the Ottomans. In any case, those monks sat on their as... and did nothing as the City fellAngryAngry
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  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 18:28

Well yes, they were monks, moral monks, not like those of the crusades... They did the right think forthemselves... The clergy (Patriarchs included) of Constantinopole had the most important role for the independence of the enslaved Orthodox population of Greece and Ottoman empire, so don't try to judge so hard the monks who were likely the majority old men(unable to fight), and some young people who delievered their live to their God and religion.

Byzantines did not fight in 1453, Constantinopolitans did. Concidering the relation between Constantinopolitans and military ( fictionary relation indeed) through eleven centuries, the fight for Constantinopole in 1453 was an achievement ( considering 1204) of courage...
 
as a modern Greek , i feel shame for the cowardness of the late Byzantines (14-15 centuries). Yes indeed the majority of them would pray instead of fighting the enemy. I can remember that Emperor Manuel II - when he was duke- tried do defend Salonica from Turks , but the civilians didn't want to ! They prefered the Ottoman domination instead of being Romans ! But you know something ? Romans knew how to  fight , they became that which they became because of their skill to fight, like the early and especially the middle era Byzantines .
 
And don't forget that Ottoman state became an empire because it was built uppon the dead bodies the courage and the blood of the Janissaries( Greeks, Slavs, Armenians and all the Byzantine ethnicities).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 19:29
Originally posted by Athanasios

the enslaved Orthodox population of Greece and Ottoman empire,
 
Confused
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 14:21
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Athanasios


theenslavedOrthodoxpopulation of Greece and Ottoman empire,


Confused


Like it or not it is the truth- "Legacy of Jihad" by Dr. Bostom is filled with testimony from both primary sources and secondary historians that testify to the sad fact of enslavment of Byzantines by the Ottoman Turks. The Venetian prirates, of that period, were also guilty of slavery so I am not picking only on the Turks.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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