Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

the fall of Constantinople

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the fall of Constantinople
    Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 08:30
Originally posted by eaglecap


slavery.
 
What kind of slavery do you mean? I didn't read the whole topic, so I probably missed, but Ottomans, as a state, never were themselves involved in slavery, in the manner we define today...I don't say there was no slavery within the borders of the empire, though state didn't directly got involved, so I would like to know what kind of slavery you are talking about out there.


Edited by Kapikulu - 18-Mar-2007 at 09:16
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 09:09
Originally posted by eaglecap



"Every Muslim believed that the Prophet himself would accord a special place in paradise to the first soldier who should force entry into the ancient Christian capital."
Runciman page 79 "The Fall of Constatinople
 
This is due to the very famous hadith of Prophet Mohammad
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 12:18
Originally posted by Kapikulu

1- It was not the Greeks, it was the Byzantines, not exactly the same thing, I presume. 
 
Kapi, I think he means Greek Byzantines in the sense of Greeks under the Byzantine Empire.
Good comments BTW Kapi. Smile
 
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 12:22
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Did Byzantines fight well with courage? Yes, they did, however that doesn't mean that there were "great odds". 
 
What were the odds during the siege when the Byzantium fell?
 
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 12:32
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by Kapikulu

1- It was not the Greeks, it was the Byzantines, not exactly the same thing, I presume. 
 
Kapi, I think he means Greek Byzantines in the sense of Greeks under the Byzantine Empire.
Good comments BTW Kapi. Smile
 
I thought the City was founded and named after Greeks and was basicly another city state. Then Rome came, but wouldn't the inhaditants still be Greek? I never heard the population being replaced when the Romans came, and no signifcant population came and replaced them from what I understand. So wouldn't the majority be Greek?
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 12:46
Yes, that's what I mean.  Greeks under the Byzantine flag.  Sorry if I didn't use the right words.
The Byzantine Empire had a big Greek component.
 
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 14:57
But what about the Officals at this time? They had to be of Greek stock too, no?
I mean, to me, the Byzantines were more Greek then anything else, especially later on from what I understand. But I'll admit I'm no expert on this issue.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Kapikulu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Berlin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 15:02
Thanks HelliosSmile
 
Further thoughts:
I think it is not the very right usage for the Byzantine Empire. Even though the dominant population has been the Greeks within the Byzantine Empire(of Western Anatolia, Aegean islands and Greece), the majority of the population hadn't always been the Greeks...Remember, Byzantine Empire's boundaries were on three continents. This goes for the emperor lineage as well...The emperor lineage was not always of Greek descent as well. To sum up, Byzantine Empire's context has been broader than only Greeks in all ways. 


Edited by Kapikulu - 18-Mar-2007 at 15:03
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 15:10
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

But what about the Officals at this time? They had to be of Greek stock too, no?
I mean, to me, the Byzantines were more Greek then anything else, especially later on from what I understand. But I'll admit I'm no expert on this issue.
 
"The Byzantine Empire is the term conventionally used since the 19th century to describe the Greek-speaking Roman Empire of the Middle Ages, centered around its capital of Constantinople, a city founded by Greeks."
 
"During much of its history it was known to many of its Western contemporaries as the Empire of the Greeks because of the dominance of Greek language and culture."
 
"Others point to the reorganisation of the empire in the time of Heraclius (ca. 620) when Latin titles and usages were officially replaced with Greek versions.  In any case, the changeover was gradual and by 330, when Constantine inaugurated his new capital, Hellenization & Christianization presided."
 
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 18:14
Originally posted by Kapikulu

I think it is not the very right usage for the Byzantine Empire. Even though the dominant population has been the Greeks within the Byzantine Empire(of Western Anatolia, Aegean islands and Greece), the majority of the population hadn't always been the Greeks...Remember, Byzantine Empire's boundaries were on three continents. This goes for the emperor lineage as well...The emperor lineage was not always of Greek descent as well. To sum up, Byzantine Empire's context has been broader than only Greeks in all ways. 
 
I agree.  Greeks were definately not the only component of the Byzantine Empire.
 
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 21:36
I don't think the defense of Constatinople was that heroic or spectacular at all. I think it has been hugely romanticised, where other battles haven't.

Its easy to die heroically.

The most important aspect of that battle to me was the Cannon

I find it a tad odd that people tend to celebrate their defeats at the hands of the turks. Somehow loosing against the Turks is one of the most heroic things you can do Confused


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 18-Mar-2007 at 21:41
Back to Top
Athanasios View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 23-Jan-2007
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 546
  Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 08:12
Cannons were used with more effectiveness by the Timur-i-lenk's army, even against the Ottomans.In my opinion thats the most important usage of cannons during the late medieval era.
Turks used them only againsed stopped targets (like the Constantinopole walls).
 
Omar al Hashim, you can't really choose how to die, especially the way that your death will be concerned by the next generetions(heroic or unfair). History decides  if you'll became a hero or not (and hollywood Tongue )
 
 
Let's go back to the topic...
 
Can we create a cross-colleration between the European geopolitics of this period and the Fall of Constantinopole? After the 100 years war , 2 completely faillured crusades and a diplomatic fever, when 2 emperors have leaved the capital , turing the western europe and asked for  aim.
All these were the Ottomans had strengthened enough to threat even the Pope... Ottomans could have captured Constantinopole even before Bagiazit, but always delayed it untill 1453. Why?
 
They had the military might to do something like that. As we know they had political instability the period before the conquest (they always had, that instability and thirst for authority created the "custom" of brotherhood murders until 17cent. if im correct) But i don't think that political instability was the reason for this delay. Was the Byzantine diplomacy so mighty ? Were the profits of a tributary tiny Byzantium more than an Ottoman capital located between Europe and Asia?i don't think so.
its said that the battle of Ankara was an unpredictable achievement of the byzantine intelligence services. Not to mention the  effort of the union of the churches that was in progress after the meetings in Ferrara and Florence...
 
I mean the background of this period is very very interesting...Shall we discuss about it?
 

Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Ustad-i Azam

Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 08:31
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I don't think the defense of Constatinople was that heroic or spectacular at all. I think it has been hugely romanticised, where other battles haven't.

Its easy to die heroically.

The most important aspect of that battle to me was the Cannon

I find it a tad odd that people tend to celebrate their defeats at the hands of the turks. Somehow loosing against the Turks is one of the most heroic things you can do Confused
 
This is also what I think. Bravo Omar. Good point.
 
The fall of Constantinople, or the Conquest of Istanbul, is highly romanticised by daydreamers. Both ways.
Back to Top
Hellios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 25-Sep-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1933
  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 16:06
Why are some people talking about romanticizing?  Who's romanticizing?
 
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 13:29
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


I don't think the defense of Constatinople was that heroic or spectacular at all. I think it has been hugely romanticised, where other battles haven't.Its easy to die heroically.The most important aspect of that battle to me was the CannonI find it a tad odd that people tend to celebrate their defeats at the hands of the turks. Somehow loosing against the Turks is one of the most heroic things you can do Confused


I can agree with some of your points and yes my sources are both Italian and Greek so they could be a little bias. Still, based on my sources it was a heroic and epic battle on the part of the Greeks and their allies. I can say the same about many of the Turks in Mehemet's army. I wish I had the time to post some quotes but I have to run. I will later on !! I have great respect for Mehmet as a leader and I am looking for a book about him and also Turkish primary sources about the battle. Also, I want to find "The Slavic Chronicles" in English if possible

added- 03/23/07
..."Children of Mahomet, be of good cheer. Tomorrow we shall have so many Christians in our hands, that we shall sell them them into slavery at two for a ducat, and we shall have such riches that we'll be all of Gold and from the beards of Greeks we shall make into leashes to tie up our dogs, and their wives and their sons shall be slaves; so be of good cheer, children of Mahomet, and be ready to die with a stout heart for love of our Mahomet."
Nicolo Barbaro - "Diary of the Siege of Constantinople.
This is supported by George Sphrantzes and other sources I have come across; including a few Turkish sources. "Legacy of Jihad" Dr. Bostom
The Italians were also guilty of slavery.





Edited by eaglecap - 28-Mar-2007 at 13:37
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 13:38
from the Chronicles of the Siege of Constantinople by George Sphrantzes

...and even if we should die in battle, as is natural in war, and meet our destined end, you know well from the Koaran what the Prophet says, he who dies in batttle shall dine in body with Mahomet, and drink with him in paradise, he shall take his rest in a spot green and fragrant with flowers, enjoying the company of woemen (sounds good) and lovely boys (yuck) and virgins, he will bath in a gorgeous bath.

The determination to take the Red Apple was great amongst Mehmets truly commited troops.
next I will said what Constantine XI said to the defenders.

Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.031 seconds.