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Polish and Hungarian costumes 1500-1800
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish and Hungarian costumes 1500-1800
    Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 03:42

10 camels of Ossoliński's legation to Rome in 1633
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Polish camel caravans: as they say, there's nothing new under the sun except the history you don't know.Wink
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 00:12
Below are comments of Tar Szerénd from the thread
I think that it might be interesting to talk about it in this thread.
 
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

Hi!
 
Thanks, I was looking for something like that.
 
A hungarian-style hussar looked something like that. (they didn't wear just wolf-leather, certenly  -the name of that 'cloth' is kacagány)
 
Tar Szerénd, this is Velimir Vuksic's modern drawing. He is a great illustrator, but this is not a primary source. So we can't be certain if all details are correct (maybe this wolf skin is just his invention modeled on Polish hussars? Velimir Vuksic was the illustrator of Polish 'winged' hussars in Brzezinski's Ospreyes about).
Personally, I'd like to see primary sources/driwings which were models for Vuksic's drawing.
 
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

Under the leg he is wearing a secondary blade, it can be a "pallos' /broadswort/ or a long(90 cm-1.50(!) cm dagger (hegyestőr)-insteod the lance (kopja)
 
In Polish laguage your 'pallos' is 'pałasz' and your 'hegyestőr' is 'koncerz'.
Tar Szerénd, can you answer if the word 'kopja' was/is used in Hungary? I ask, because it seems to be relative to Polish word 'kopia' (which means a lance).
 
 
 
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

On the head he is wearing a sisak-in the 15 years war many countries take these type of helmet in their armies -like England. The older version was an ottoman tipe sisak, vith a taller top.
 
Sometimes the hussars were wearing blackened arm and leg armours too, but mainly the rich soldiers. And until the 2. half of the 17. Cent a main part of the armour was the Tárcsa, a type of  shield.
 
TSZ
 
It's interesting. Your 'Tárcsa' in Polish is 'tarcza'. I have always though that it is Polish word. Who knows, maybe Hungarians copied this word from Polish language Smile...


Edited by ataman - 23-Feb-2007 at 00:16
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 00:28
Below is a painting of arc-duke Ferdynand Habsburg. It seems that he is using a Hungarian hussar gear. But I am not certain. Does anybody know something more about this painting?
 



Edited by ataman - 23-Feb-2007 at 00:43
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 07:17
It's a picture of a hung. nobleman on a hussar tournament, Ferdinand's hussar costume was white and silver.
 
TSZ


Edited by Tar Szerénd - 23-Feb-2007 at 07:18
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 07:19
Hussars:
 
 
 
Other pictures coming soon...
 
TSZ


Edited by Tar Szerénd - 03-Mar-2007 at 03:39
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 00:53
Thanks to Tar Szerénd, I can put here pictures of Hungarian costumes.
 
1. Grassalkovich Antal, 1694-1771. Hungarian nobleman in dolmány and mente (under and upper  coat in hussar-style)
 
 
2. II. Rákócz Ferenc (Franciscus Rakoczi), 1676-1735. The leading princeps of Hungary (1703-1711) french type wig.
 
 
3. The same person as a child.
 
 
4. Zrínyi Miklós (Nikolaus Zrini, jun.), 1620-1664 Hungarian noble man, ban of Croatia and main military captain of Lower-Hungary.
 
 
5. Bethlen Gábor (Gabriel Bethlen), hungarian noble, 1580-1629. Princeps of Transylwania


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:12
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6. Esterházy Miklós 1582-1645, hungarian magnat

 
 
7. hungarian noble man, woman and boy clothes, from the 1750's.

 
 
 
8. Kemény János, hungarian nobleman, princeps of Transylwania 1661-1662. Ottoman style hair.
 
 
 
9. hungarian hussar in the french army, in the first half of the 18. century.
Regiment of György (Georg) Ráttky. (Rattsky)
 
 
 
10. "Hussar-heroism", from Th. Höchle-F. Kriehuber


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:14
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11. Beleznay János regiment owner, lieutenant-general, 18. century.

 
 
 
12. Kuruc soldiers (hussars of II. Rákóczi Ferenc)
 
 
 
13. Hussarcolonel in the early 1700's.
 
 
14. hussars on robbery tour:-), end of the 18. Century. etched engraving
 
 
15. II. Joseph of Habsbourg, der Kaiser von Österreich:-) as a child, in hungarian dress. 1740's.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:16
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16. hungarian style hussar from somewhere in Eorope, early 1800's.

 
 
 
17. Hadik András, 1710-1790, general, regiment owner, president of the austrian Military Concil of the Court, he tributed Berlin with only one hussar regiment.
 
 
 
18. kuruc hussar, early 1700's.
 
 
 
19. Thököly Imre, 1657-1705. Hungarian nobleman, princeps of Upper-Hungary. He is holding a csákány-fokos (east type war-hammer)
 
 
 
20. Batthyány Ádám, hungarian magnat he is wearing a tipical hungarian style noble dress, and a golden general-buzogány (bulawa, mace).


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:18
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21. Kornis Gáspár, Transylwanian hungarian nobleman, 17. Century.

 
 
22. deleted (pictures 8 and 22 are the same)

 

 
 
23. Armour of a hajdú (they were hungarian /mainly/infantry-soldiers, originated from armoured "cowboys") captain, early 17. Century.
 
 
 
24. Hungarian noble woman dress, 17. century.
 
 
 
 
25. Hungarian golden-turquise-granat-enamel cap (süveg) decoration, Transylwania, 1650's and double coat (mente) clasp.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:23
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26. Men's mente (coat), 17. century.

 
 
27. Báthory István (Stephanus Bathory), 1533-1586, hungarian magnat, princeps of Transylwania, king of Poland.
 
 
 
28. Josepf of Habsburg, hungarian comes-palatinus (nádor), 1776-1847, in hungarian hussar uniform.
 
 
29. hungarian hussar from 1790.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 06:24
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ok, you can post the others if you want, i'll describe them here.
 
30: hajdú infantry and cavalry soldiers, 1650's.
 
31:An executing in 1600; hungarian hajdus are killing the wallon soldiers who wanted to give over the fortess of Pápa to the ottomans.
 
32: hungarian-ottoman duel, end of the 16. century. (with kopjas (light lances), and without any shields and body armour!!)
 
33: Lazarus Schwendl (left) and Thury György, captain of Várpalota, in hungarian armour; he was a famous dueller, ottoman solders came from all over the Empire to fight with him. End of the 16. Century.
 
34/35: two hungarian-ottoman battles, 16-17. cent.
 
36: hungarian mounted archer, 16. Century.
 
 
 
 
TSZ
 
 


Edited by Tar Szerénd - 03-Mar-2007 at 14:42
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I have edited my previous messages. There are pictures and descriptions already.
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30. hajdú infantry and cavalry soldiers, 1650's.

 
 
 
31. An executing in 1600; hungarian hajdus are killing the wallon soldiers who wanted to give over the fortess of Pápa to the ottomans.
 
 
 
32. hungarian-ottoman duel, end of the 16. century. (with kopjas (light lances), and without any shields and body armour!!)
 
 
 
33. Lazarus Schwendl (left) and Thury György, captain of Várpalota, in hungarian armour; he was a famous dueller, ottoman solders came from all over the Empire to fight with him. End of the 16. Century.
 
 
34. hungarian-ottoman battle, 16-17. cent.

 
 
35. hungarian-ottoman battle, 16-17. cent.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 11:44
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36.  Hungarian mounted archer, 16. century.

 
 
 
37.  Hungarian noble men with buzogánys and pavises in Vienna, Jagello era. (1500)
 
 
 
38.  One of the first drawings about a hungarian hussar, with early type of tárcsa shield and sabre. (1500)
 
 
 
 
39.  Infantry and cavalry hajdús from the early 1600's.
 
 
 
40.  Hungarian hussar armour (rákozott vért/crablike body armour/ and sisak/helmet)and tárcsa shield, end of the 16. Century.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 21:57
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41.  Two later type tárcsa shields for left and write hand.

 
 
 
42. Early type hussar sisak (helmet) originated from ottoman sipahi and jebejji helmets, of prince Ferdinand of Habsburg, 1510's.

 
 
 
43.  The white-silver hussar costume of Ferdinand, 1514. Turkish-hungarian type horse harness (f. e. the bonchok), hungarian saddle, hungarian stirrups etc.
 
 
 
44.  The sisak of Stephanus Bathory, Turkey.
 
 
 
45.  The sisak of the hungarian -croatian ban Nicolaus Zrini, sen. (Zrínyi Miklós), the heroe of Szigetvár, he died under this helmet in 1566 by defending the fortess against II. Soliman. Hungary.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 22:00
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46.  Hungarian horse harness and sabre.

 
 
 
47.  Attacking hussars, 16-17. Century.
 
 
 
48.  Hungarian hussar, 1550's.
 
 
 
49.  Hungarian hussar attacking wit hegyestőr (long dagger ), early 1500's.
 
 
 
50.  Western type knights against light armoured hussars 1526-1560.
 
 
 
 
51. Hungarian/Transylwanian battery, 1600's.


Edited by ataman - 03-Mar-2007 at 22:03
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 22:56
These are almost all photos I've got from Tar by now. I've got also few photos of Hungarian saddles, but I'd like to put them later.

My first comments:

Hungarian and Polish terminology have many similar words. By now I have noticed these similar words (though I have no idea if these words are Polish or Hungarian or any other origin)


1. a shield (P: 'tarcza'; H: 'tárcsa')

2. a lance (P: 'kopia'; H: 'kopja')

3. a kind of helmet (P: 'szyszak'; H: 'sisak')

4. a kind of maces (P: 'buława' and 'buzdygan'; H: 'bulawa' and 'buzogány')

5. a kind of infantry shield (plural form: P: 'pawęże'; H: 'pavises')

6. a kind of sword (P: 'pałasz'; H: 'pallos')

7. a kind of infantryman (P: 'hajduk'; H: 'hajdú'). I see that in Hungarian language 'hajdú' might be also a cavalryman. In Polish it was only a Hungarian type of infantryman.

8. a kind of warhammer (P: 'czekan'; H: 'csákány-fokos')

9. a kind of clothe (P: 'dołmana'; H: 'dolmány')

 

Tar, how do you call these things:

  • a hussar - modern Polish 'husarz'; old Polish 'usar'

  • a kind of hat - P: 'czapka'

Do you have similar words to Polish: 'żupan', 'kontusz', 'karabela', 'czeczuga' (it seems that this word is a Turkish origin and in Turkish language means a flower; in Polish it is a kind of Tartar sabre), 'tarpan', 'bachmat', 'kołpak', 'sajdak', 'łubie', 'kałkan', 'rohatyna', 'obuszek', 'kurtka'.

I've also noticed that until about 1630's Polish and Hungarian costumes were really very similar (I'll put some examples from Poland later). Bigger difference was since 1630's - 1640's. Since 1640's the Poles began wear 'kontusz' (a kind of outer dress – look at the painting of Antoni Stanisław Szczuka http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/20070208_072201_Szczuka.jpg This red dress is a kontusz). Tar, I can't find any example of kontusz on your pictures. Maybe the only one exception is Thököly Imre on the 19th picture. It seems that he wears something similar to kontusz. Can you write when this painting was done?


Tar, I was supprised your description of the 8th picture. I mean, I was supprised that you have written 'Ottoman style hair'. In Poland this kind of hair-do was popular since a second half of 16th c. and is called Polish. But maybe indeed it has Ottoman origin. I don't know.

 
Another notice - the picture 43th. You have called those stirrups Hungarian ones. In Polish this kind of stirrup is called Turkish one.
 
And finally - I've noticed that (opposite to the Poles) Hungarians didn't use armours since early 17th c. Is my notice correct?

That's all by now. I'd like to put some pictures from Poland soon.

 
p.s
If sombody wants to compare Hungarian hussars to Polish ones, check this page (and the next one)
there are pictures of Polish hussars.


Edited by ataman - 04-Mar-2007 at 00:14
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 02:39

PLC (costumes in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) 1.

Michał Borysowicz (1453-1505). The painting was painted in the end of 16th c. Michał Borysowicz was Russian duke, who escaped to Lithuania. He has got some properties  in Lithuania from Polish king Kazimierz Jagiellończyk and lived there. 



Edited by ataman - 04-Mar-2007 at 02:40
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