Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

1916 Rising in Ireland. Progress or regress?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Poll Question: Did the Rising do more good than harm to the cause of Irish freedom?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
7 [50.00%]
7 [50.00%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1916 Rising in Ireland. Progress or regress?
    Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 07:10
This topic could have a website of its own, there's that many interpretations out there. That's why I pose the question, and why I give no opinion of my own as of yet.
 
What's your opinion?
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 08:36
I believe the 1916 Rising resulted in stifling the cause of Irish freedom. You ask why Dolphin, why? I'll tell you why:
 
1) It ended the period of peaceful, or parliamentarian nationalism and replaced it with a vigorous, violent sort meaning lives were lost unneccesarily.
 
2) The aims of the 'martyrs' of 1916 could have been achieved by now (Except with the end result of a united Ireland of course) if the Easter Rising hadn't of taken place. When people look at the Easter Rising they fail to look at the context of the time; England was the powerful Empire in the world engaged with a fight to the death against the most rapidly growing economic and military power at the time (I think German growth rates were higher than the US at this time, i could be wrong) Of course its response to the Easter Rising was going to be violent and brutal. Furthermore, although you didn't bring the Treaty into this equation I feel the two events are interlinked solidly; IF the rising hadn't of happened I honestly believe the War of Independance wouldn't have happened. And if it did, it would have been quashed a lot sooner. Like the old saying; 'Symbols without meaning are useless, symbols with meaning can save the world' Well I believe the symbol of the Easter Rising spurred on the quest for Irish freedom, which in my eyes was mislead from the start.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 12:24
I put it to you Denis, that you answered my poll question incorrectly, judging by your written response. My mistake, I probably made the poll question a bit overly complicated and misleading.
I myself am of the opinion that in the context of the time, in the midst of World War 1, with Britain engaged in a deathly struggle with Germany and the future of Europe as we see it today in real jeopardy, the Rising was a grossly mistimed and imprudent grasp at Freedom. Of course, the intentions of the main parties involved, namely James Connolly, Padraig Pearse,Thomas J Clarke, Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas Mac Donagh, Eamonn Ceannt and Joseph Plunkett among others were honorable within their own sphere of social and political philosophy, but unjustifiable in a modern context.
The old mantra of "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity" could have stretched the English forces too broadly and weakened their position in the war, meaning that, in all honesty I could be sitting here today, writing this reply in German from an entirely different perspective. That's a scary thought. 
Anyway, thanks for the insight.
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 12:47
I put it to you Denis
 
And I put it to you that you are a
 
 
for using such terminology. Anyway, back to the point.
 
My point is that the Easter Rising (And violent republicanism in general) is well intentioned of course (But then again so was communism, socialism, anarchism etc.) but that the rebels were mislead.
 
In the context of the time complete seperation from the British Empire was a virtual impossibility. In the context of the time the Rising can be admired from a romantic point of view, but from a practical point of view it was madness. The greatest chance we had ever had for unification was in the Home Rule movement under Parnell. If he hadn't had the misfortune to live in a Victorian society where his relationship with Kitty o Shea was frowned upon on 'moral grounds' by Gladstone and the ilk, we may very well have a Protestant icon for the Northern Unionists to rally around, rather than an image of small mindedness, intolerance and priests which is essentially all the 1916 Easter Rising brought about. We literally made our choice in the aftermath of 1916; Either embrace peace or war. The peaceful path bared the risk of us simply being a devolved member of the UK, much like Scotland is today but it also had the advantage of economic prosperity, the rule of reason rather than superstition (As in under the catholic theocracy) and the potential peaceful unification of this island. Well, we've all seen what embracing of the violent path has done for this nation.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 12:56
A clown I may be, but at least i'm not aguing against someone with the same point! Just to take you up on something, violent republicanism in an Irish context has never been well intended, emerging from the British oppresion of the Irish since Dermot Mac Murrugh up to the deplorable behaviour of the IRA, as it has always een founded on individual greed whether due to the expropopriation of land or the opportunities to make large sums of money taking goods illegally across a border that the IRA were supposedly fighting to irradicate.
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 13:00
A clown I may be, but at least i'm not aguing against someone with the same point!
 
True enough, seems we are in agreement on this, like we seem to be on a lot of things.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 10:39

A clown he may be but this is how I imagine you Denis typing away your nonsense on the computer



Edited by UberCoolist - 08-Feb-2007 at 10:40
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 10:54
Very witty...
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 12:04
Please dont bring the topic down to that, I started this thread to seriously ask people's opinions.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 10:18

thats a difficult question. . . .in terms of progress or regress it comes down to everybody's own personal opinion. In my opinion i feel that there could have been two possible scenarios in 1916. It must be remembered that at the time in 1916 a lot of irish people in general were happy under british rule, demonstrated by the fact the rebels had rotten fruit thrown at them after their surrender. Had there not been a rising, Ireland most probably would have been granted home rule. If this had happened ireland would still be under british rule and be no different to scotland or wales at this time. The fact is the executions of pearse, connolly etc. awoke a yearning for total independence in the majority of irish people which in turn led to the war of independence. Overall the rising was the catalyst for the 26 counties achieving total independence from britain and is the reason we are now able to make our own laws free from british rule. The rising may have been a horribly planned cheap shot at a nation on it's knees but without the rising we would most likely be no more than a puppet state like scotland or wales having to pay taxes to the Queen and for that reason i have to say overall it proved to be progress

Back to Top
pekau View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Atlantean Prophet

Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:01
My answers is no. Look at India's independence, for instance.
     
   
Join us.
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:10
I'm just after realising that Waty refused to comment on this thread, instead attacking the integrity of the person rather than the integrity of the post. Troll anyone?
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 07:27
Heard trolls don't taste very good, so no thanks
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 11:36
We must note that in the initial stages and during the battle in the streets ,very few Irish actually were with the rebels.Most supported them after the rebels were captured and during their trials.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 16:17
That's because they ruined half of the city due to their actions and over 350 civilians were killed before the unconditional ceasefire was issued.
 
John Dillon said to General Maxwell when he ordered the deaths of the rebels that he was 'washing our life's work away in a sea of blood', by which he meant that the peaceful methods that Dillon had spent his political career employing to gain Irish independence were being destroyed by a wave of nationalistic and violent revolt against the heavy hand of the British. And he was right, as was Pearce, who had predicted the very same thing, except with enthusiasm and not anger. 
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 16:56
Well,one could argue that it was not the Irish rebels who were responsible for the destruction of Dublin,but the British artilery.The Irish did not expect from the British to actually use any artillery in such an inhabited area.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 20:30
Its just an abstraction, due to their actions the artillery was employed to deal with them and then the city was subsequently heavily damaged. Without the actions of the rebels the city would not have been bombed.

 

Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 14:05
Without the actions,freedom would be postponed for who knows how much time.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Suspended

Joined: 06-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1551
  Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 12:08
Exactly, WHO KNOWS how long before we would have achieved freedom, it could have been peaceful, it might not have started a civil war and polarised the country, we could be living in a 32 county Republic now, the troubles might never have happened, the religious hatred still felt in northern Ireland might have been quelled. We just don't know. Redmond's Home Rule Bill was set for implementation in 1914, but was set to be postponed until the First World War finished. Yes, we gained more off the British from the 1921 treaty than from the proposed Home Rule Bill, but we paid for it with the blood of innocents and misleds.
 
Was the hypothetical 'time gain' towards freedom worth the lives that were lost?
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 07:03
Heres another posing question:
 
What if the Free State aided Britain in WW2 and Churchill lived up to his promise of helping us get the North if we co-operated during the war?
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.