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Mongolian Influence on Russia
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TheDiplomat View Drop Down
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongolian Influence on Russia
    Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:55
Many nationalist Russian historians some western scholars always blamed The Mongols when they attempted to interprate the historical backwardness of Russia in comprasion with Western European countries. When people sought for the historical roots of anything wrong in Russia, The Mongol invasions became the best target...
 
But is it really so?
 
Today I read that it was the Mongolian thing that money and a healty tax system were introduced in Russia. What is more, the postal system in Russia was also a Mongolian invention. Added to that is that it was The Golden Horde which helped strengthen Muscovy, be it intentionally or unintentionally.
 
So how would you counterargue a nationalist Russian historian? what positive things would you say about The Mongol Influence on Russia?


Edited by TheDiplomat - 04-Feb-2007 at 16:58
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There are so many "IF ... THEN ..." about The Mongol Influence on Russia Wink If You ask only about positive  things , it could be:
1.  at least 6,000,000 citizens of russia (modern Tatars) 
2. "geneologocal diversity"- it always good (from evolution point of view)  when nationalities are mixing;
2.  Consolidation of Russian lands/dutchies;
3. Increasing power of The Moscow State - modern Russia;
4. Development of Orthodox Church. (It is very intersing point of view. There were 2 reasons: I - like in cases of any wars/disasters man goes to faith; II - Tatars /mongols tried not to attack clositers, but usually took lands,property from feudals . So, at the time of Tatars/Mogols Yoke The Church became the lagest feudal.)
 
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I think a very important one was the adaptation of the Russians to make greater use of cavalry. This gave them a military advantage up until the 20th century.

Apart from what is mentioned, I would say that overall the Mongol impact on Russia was a negative one.
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 03:56

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Many nationalist Russian historians some western scholars always blamed The Mongols when they attempted to interprate the historical backwardness of Russia in comprasion with Western European countries.

Do you think that all Western European countries had the same level of civilization? Do you count, for example, Sweden as a Western European country? If yes, Russia had a more advanced civilization than Sweden in the Middle Ages.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

When people sought for the historical roots of anything wrong in Russia, The Mongol invasions became the best target...

But is it really so?

Today I read that it was the Mongolian thing that money and a healty tax system were introduced in Russia.

The foundations of the Russian monetary and fiscal system were laid in the 9th century, so Mongols could not have anything to do with that.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

What is more, the postal system in Russia was also a Mongolian invention. Added to that is that it was The Golden Horde which helped strengthen Muscovy, be it intentionally or unintentionally.

Helped strengthen by systematically plundering, killing and capturing people?

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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:09
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I think a very important one was the adaptation of the Russians to make greater use of cavalry. This gave them a military advantage up until the 20th century.
 
Russian armies were mounted from the late 10th century.
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:12
Originally posted by John Lenon

There are so many "IF ... THEN ..." about The Mongol Influence on Russia Wink If You ask only about positive  things , it could be:
1.  at least 6,000,000 citizens of russia (modern Tatars) 
2. "geneologocal diversity"- it always good (from evolution point of view)  when nationalities are mixing;
 
Russians have never absorbed any Tatar blood. It's Tatars who are heavily mixed, not Russians.
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:48
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Many nationalist Russian historians some western scholars always blamed The Mongols when they attempted to interprate the historical backwardness of Russia in comprasion with Western European countries.

Do you think that all Western European countries had the same level of civilization? Do you count, for example, Sweden as a Western European country? If yes, Russia had a more advanced civilization than Sweden in the Middle Ages.
 
You totally misunderstood my post. I was refering to the way some  current western scholars attempting to explain Russia's backwardsness compraed with Western Europe in terms of historical reasons.

Originally posted by AEON

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

When people sought for the historical roots of anything wrong in Russia, The Mongol invasions became the best target...

But is it really so?

Today I read that it was the Mongolian thing that money and a healty tax system were introduced in Russia.

The foundations of the Russian monetary and fiscal system were laid in the 9th century, so Mongols could not have anything to do with that.

Before the  Mongols, only poor peasants were paying taxes. But Mongold were collecting taxes from everyone regardless of their status. Therefore I argued that Mongols invented a true fiscal system in Russia.
 
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

What more, the postal system in Russia was also a Mongolian invention. Added to that is that it was The Golden Horde which helped strengthen Muscovy, be it intentionally or unintentionally.

Helped strengthen by systematically plundering, killing and capturing people?

 
how come the Muscovy emerged among others than? Muscovy was always willing to side with The Golden Horde in return for their favour over other cities. It was the mistake of The Golden Horde to stregthen Muscoy to a large extend without foreseeing the future course of events
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by John Lenon

There are so many "IF ... THEN ..." about The Mongol Influence on Russia Wink If You ask only about positive  things , it could be:
1.  at least 6,000,000 citizens of russia (modern Tatars) 
2. "geneologocal diversity"- it always good (from evolution point of view)  when nationalities are mixing;
2.  Consolidation of Russian lands/dutchies;
3. Increasing power of The Moscow State - modern Russia;
4. Development of Orthodox Church. (It is very intersing point of view. There were 2 reasons: I - like in cases of any wars/disasters man goes to faith; II - Tatars /mongols tried not to attack clositers, but usually took lands,property from feudals . So, at the time of Tatars/Mogols Yoke The Church became the lagest feudal.)
 
 
Thanks for the insights. Quite plausible for explaining of positive points of inflienceSmile
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:14
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Before the  Mongols, only poor peasants were paying taxes. But Mongold were collecting taxes from everyone regardless of their status. Therefore I argued that Mongols invented a true fiscal system in Russia.
 
Before Mongols, everyone paid taxes in Russia. Mongols invented nothing in Russia, apart from mass murders, destructions and captivity.
  
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

how come the Muscovy emerged among others than? Muscovy was always willing to side with The Golden Horde in return for their favour over other cities. It was the mistake of The Golden Horde to stregthen Muscoy to a large extend without foreseeing the future course of events
 
Moscow emerged among others because it defeated the hated Tatars.
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:17
Originally posted by John Lenon

Tatars /mongols tried not to attack clositers,
 
Tatars/mongols murdered priests and monks just like anyone else.
 
Originally posted by John Lenon

but usually took lands,property from feudals .
 
Tatars/Mongols never took lands or property from Russian feudals. The only thing that they took was tribute.
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:34
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Before the  Mongols, only poor peasants were paying taxes. But Mongold were collecting taxes from everyone regardless of their status. Therefore I argued that Mongols invented a true fiscal system in Russia.
 
Before Mongols, everyone paid taxes in Russia. Mongols invented nothing in Russia, apart from mass murders, destructions and captivity.
  
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

how come the Muscovy emerged among others than? Muscovy was always willing to side with The Golden Horde in return for their favour over other cities. It was the mistake of The Golden Horde to stregthen Muscoy to a large extend without foreseeing the future course of events
 
Moscow emerged among others because it defeated the hated Tatars.
 
Mongols stayed there for 250 years. Noone can live under destruction and mass murder for 250 years. Just imagine how many generation does this duration equal to?
 
Many Russians knez were visiting The Golden Horde and sending Slavic girls to marry Mongols Khans. Many Rus knez also married with sisters or daughters of Mongol Khans.. So Rus Ruling elite was also mongolized to some extend.


Edited by TheDiplomat - 05-Feb-2007 at 05:35
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:43
Originally posted by aeon

 
Before Mongols, everyone paid Mongols invented nothing in Russia, apart from mass murders, destructions and captivity
 
Did you know that even the first population census in what is known today as Russia was carried out by Mongol-dominated Vladimir-Suzdal in 1257?LOL
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:45
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 
Mongols stayed there for 250 years. Noone can live under destruction and mass murder for 250 years. Just imagine how many generation does this duration equal to?
 
Mongols did not stay there. Mongols stayed out. Russian kings collected tributes and brought them to the Horde. There never was any Mongol/Tatar presence in the Russian lands.
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 Many Russians knez were visiting The Golden Horde and sending Slavic girls to marry Mongols Khans.
 
Russian kings never sent Slavic girls to marry Mongol khans.
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 Many Rus knez also married with sisters or daughters of Mongol Khans.. So Rus Ruling elite was also mongolized to some extend.
 
There were 2 cases when Russian kings were forced to marry sisters or daughters of Mongol khans, but both of these marriages left no offspring. The Russian ruling elite was mongolized to zero extent.
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:50
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Did you know that even the first population census in what is known today as Russia was carried out by Mongol-dominated Vladimir-Suzdal in 1257? 
 
It was not carried out by Vladimir-Suzdal but by Mongols themselves. And did you know that Mongol tribute-collectors were massacred and kicked out of Russia in 1262, just 5 years after the census? LOL
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Posts: 132 		  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:57
Originally posted by aeon

Russians have never absorbed any Tatar blood. It's Tatars who are heavily mixed, not Russians.
Aeon, it sounds nice, but there are always 2 sides in children-making Wink
 
And there always were mixing of population in Russian Lands. Slavs-Finns, Slavs-Balts in north/west, Slavs-Tatars in south, etc.  I don't speak about cluture,power, only about "new fresh blood".
 
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:16
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Did you know that even the first population census in what is known today as Russia was carried out by Mongol-dominated Vladimir-Suzdal in 1257? 
 
It was not carried out by Vladimir-Suzdal but by Mongols themselves. And did you know that Mongol tribute-collectors were massacred and kicked out of Russia in 1262, just 5 years after the census? LOL
 
But it does not change the fact that the first population census was carried out by Mongols in VladimirSuzdal, in other words, on current Russian territory. So you admit that Mongols brought something new to RussiaLOL
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:19
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

But it does not change the fact that the first population census was carried out by Mongols in VladimirSuzdal, in other words, on current Russian territory. So you admit that Mongols brought something new to Russia 
 
I have already admitted it - mass murders, plundering and captivity.
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:26
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 
Mongols stayed there for 250 years. Noone can live under destruction and mass murder for 250 years. Just imagine how many generation does this duration equal to?
 
Mongols did not stay there. Mongols stayed out. Russian kings collected tributes and brought them to the Horde. There never was any Mongol/Tatar presence in the Russian lands.
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 Many Russians knez were visiting The Golden Horde and sending Slavic girls to marry Mongols Khans.
 
Russian kings never sent Slavic girls to marry Mongol khans.
 
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

 Many Rus knez also married with sisters or daughters of Mongol Khans.. So Rus Ruling elite was also mongolized to some extend.
 
There were 2 cases when Russian kings were forced to marry sisters or daughters of Mongol khans, but both of these marriages left no offspring. The Russian ruling elite was mongolized to zero extent.
 
It is known that between 1240 and 1430, 130 Rus knez visited The Golden Horde and stayed in the capital for a long time observing Mongol khans.
 
Also contrary to argument, marriages between Mongols and Rus ruling elite were common. The wife of Muscovy knez- Yury Danilovich was the sister of Uzbek khan.. Added to that is that wifes of Novgorod and Yaroslavl knezs were also Mongolian offspring. It is also known that many of Rus boyars also married Mongolian girls. So the Russian elite was tatarized. It can be argued that 130 boyar families that played importat roles in Russian history  had Mongol and Turkic roots. Some of them are Glinsky, Godunow, Golovin, Lopuchin, Apraksin, Saburov, Turgenev Uvarov, Urusov, Yushkov, and Stroganov.
 
With regard to monetary and fiscal situaton in Russia, I want you to know that The Russian word for money -denge comes from Mongolian word for money- tengeLOL
 
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:27
Originally posted by John Lenon

Aeon, it sounds nice, but there are always 2 sides in children-making Wink
 
Right, Tatars stole Russian and other women and married them. It is one of the reasons why they are heavily mixed. The other reason is that they are migrant population that absorbed the indigenous European people of the Volga basin. Russians, on the other hand, never married Tatar women.
 
Originally posted by John Lenon

And there always were mixing of population in Russian Lands. Slavs-Finns, Slavs-Balts in north/west, Slavs-Tatars in south, etc.  I don't speak about cluture,power, only about "new fresh blood". 
 
Slavs, Balts and Finns were very similar tribes. Tatars were too alien to mix with. And I do not know what you mean by "new fresh blood". I think that all blood is the same age, i.e. equally fresh (or old).
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:29
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

But it does not change the fact that the first population census was carried out by Mongols in VladimirSuzdal, in other words, on current Russian territory. So you admit that Mongols brought something new to Russia 
 
I have already admitted it - mass murders, plundering and captivity.
 
Mass murder, plundering were practiced in Kievan Rus even before the Mongols... How can you forget Igor's Byzentine campaign in 907 and the subsequent plunder of its capital?Wink
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