Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedquestion about the Egyptians..?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213>
Author
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Topic: question about the Egyptians..?
    Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 09:34
Originally posted by Moustafa Pasha

Origin of the Ancient Egyptians

by Cheikh Anta Diop

Please. Diop is a leading figure of Afrocentrism Wink
 
See the highlighted part:
 
History of Afrocentrism
A%201911%20copy%20of%20the%20NAACP%20journal%20The%20Crisis%20depicting%20Ra-Maat-Neb,%20one%20of%20the%20black%20kings%20of%20the%20Upper%20Nile.
A 1911 copy of the NAACP journal The Crisis depicting "Ra-Maat-Neb, one of the black kings of the Upper Nile."

The origins of Afrocentrism can be found in the work of African-American and Caribbean intellectuals early in the twentieth century. Publications such as The Crisis and the Journal of Negro History sought to counter the prevailing view in the West that Africa had contributed nothing of value to human history that was not the result of incursions by Europeans and Arabs.[1] These journals asserted the fundamental blackness of ancient Egypt and investigated the history of black Africa. Editor of The Crisis W.E.B. DuBois researched West African culture and attempted to construct a pan-Africanist value system based on West African traditions. DuBois later envisioned and received funding from then Ghanaian president Kwame Nkrumah to produce an Encyclopedia Africana that would chronicle the history and cultures of black Africa, but he died before the work could be completed. Some aspects of DuBois's approach are evident in the work of Cheikh Anta Diop, who claimed to have identified a pan-African protolanguage and to have proven that ancient Egyptians were, indeed, black Africans.

Diop also drew from the ideas of George M. James, [citation needed]a follower of black nationalist leader Marcus Garvey, who emphasized the importance of Ethiopia as a great, black civilization, and who argued that black peoples should develop pride in African history. James' book, Stolen Legacy (1954) is often cited as one of the foundational texts of Afrocentrism. James claimed that Greek philosophy was "stolen" from ancient Egyptian traditions and that these had developed from distinctively African cultural roots. For James, the works of Aristotle and other Greek thinkers were, in fact, poor synopses of aspects of ancient Egyptian wisdom. According to James, the Greeks were a violent and quarrelsome people, unlike the Egyptians, and were not naturally capable of philosophy. James famously claimed in his book that Aristotle had physically "stolen" his ideas and works from a "black African" Library of Alexandria, when, in fact, the Library of Alexandria was built by Greeks, during the Hellenistic period of Egypt, and after Aristotle's death.

These ideas were not wholly new. 18th-century Masonic texts referenced ancient writings that claimed Greek philosophers had studied in Egypt. The poet William Blake had also attacked "the stolen and perverted writings of Homer and Ovid, of Plato and Cicero," asserting that they were copies of more ancient Semitic texts. Such views were associated with radical and Romantic thought that rejected classical Greco-Roman culture as the model for civilization. James' distinct contribution was to tie these claims to an opposition between white European and black African identity, associating these alleged ancient appropriations of black wisdom with white, imperialist exploitation of black peoples and the theft of artifacts from black African cultures. By claiming that the Greeks were barbaric and innately incapable of philosophy, he inverted normative imperialist racial hierarchies, which made the same claims about black Africans.

Other writers copied James' approach, which led to claims that black Africans originated intellectual or technological achievements that later were claimed by whites. Today, most of these writings are not considered serious scholarship, and modern Afrocentricity writers have abandoned James' more extreme claims to concentrate on the notion that modern black peoples should center their understanding of culture and history on Africa. Molefi Kete Asante's book Afrocentricity (1988) argues that African-Americans should look to African cultures "as a critical corrective to a displaced agency among Africans."

Other authors have adapted James' assertion that Egyptian culture's influence on the Greeks has been underestimated. Among such scholars, the most influential is Martin Bernal, whose book Black Athena stressed influence of Afro-Asiatic and Semitic civilizations on Classical Greece. Other writers simply have focused on the study of indigenous African civilizations and peoples, with the aim of counteracting the emphasis placed on European and Arab influence on the continent. These Afrocentric scholars believe that historians must shift their attention away from European accomplishments and Europe-derived racist assumptions and, instead, emphasize the black origins of mankind and black contributions to world history. They maintain that such a paradigm shift would result in significant attitudinal shifts in the West and elsewhere. Indeed, many claim that a dramatic shift already has occurred. As educational opportunities have broadened for peoples of color over the years, non-white scholars from many cultures increasingly have begun to examine anew the historical and archaeological record. Some of their findings challenge the Eurocentric view of world history which for so many centuries devalued and appropriated, or simply ignored achievements by blacks and other non-Europeans.



Edited by pinguin - 15-Feb-2007 at 09:38
Back to Top
AfrikaJamaika View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 26-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 14:01


You have replied to Pasha but u haven't replied and acknowledged the pictures of The black Egyptian Pharaohs that i have posted....You are in denial Pinguin, like i said before Egypt started off negroid, and then changed into the middle eastern people that reside their today.......And if you want to lie any further i will put up more sources of the Caucasians Historians, Scholars, Scientists, etc.. To prove you wrong...And to reveal the truth....



Edited by AfrikaJamaika - 15-Feb-2007 at 14:09
Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 14:32

While I think that most of Diop's article is contrived and biased, there was one thing in it that reminded me of a documentary I've seen. Diop said that Egyptian had some linguistic links with Wolof, a language from Senegal, which also happens to be 5000 km away. Why would Egyptian have something in common with far-away Wolof and not with the much geographically closer Nubian languages?

The answer lies in the formation of the Sahara. The desert is fairly young and 8000 years ago, plenty of people lived in it, as evidenced for instance by the rock paintings in the Tassili and Tibesti mountains. As the region dried up, the original inhabitants of the Sahara had to migrate to more hospitable regions: Sub-Saharan Africa (including Senegal), the coastal regions of North Africa and the Nile Valley. Thus the Egyptians of the historical period were a mixture of the original inhabitants of the Nile Valley and these Saharan immigrants. So the question is: what did these two groups look like? Many studies still have to be made, but my guess is that the Saharan immigrants would have been much like the modern Berbers(the original inhabitants of North Africa before the Arab invasions), which is to say fairly light-skinned. Just look at the Egyptian depiction of their Lybian neighbors, who were also fairly light-skinned and who in all likelyhood would have had a Saharan descendency or at the very least a strong Saharan component. The original inhabitants of the Nile Valley may well have been somewhat more similar to the Ethiopians. This would have resulted in a mixed population thousands of years before Egypt started developing statal structures. Ironically, Diop's argument that Egypt was "black" due to linguistic similarities with Wolof, may actually reside on linguistic elements brought in both places by "white" people.

In addition, Pharaonic Egypt also had many migrations from Middle-Eastern tribes, most famously the Appirru and of course the Hyksos, from Lybia and from Nubia, and later on from Assyria, Persia and Greece which would have added even more to the diversity of the genetic pool.

In the war of pictures we are having here, we see both "black" and "white" looking Egyptians: that's because both were there: due to this intermixing of populations, the Egyptians had a wide variety of appearances.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 14:38
 
This penguin is not in denial.
And as you know penguins are black and white, like Egypt LOLLOLLOL
 
Now, why do YOU deny Berbers, Middle Easterners and other Caucasoid peoples have always exist in North Africa?


Edited by pinguin - 15-Feb-2007 at 14:41
Back to Top
AfrikaJamaika View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 26-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 15:52
Originally posted by pinguin

 
This penguin is not in denial.
And as you know penguins are black and white, like Egypt LOLLOLLOL
 
Now, why do YOU deny Berbers, Middle Easterners and other Caucasoid peoples have always exist in North Africa?


Because they haven't they invaded....
Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 16:22
okay, that doesn't make any sense... care to elaborate? 
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
AfrikaJamaika View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 26-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:03
Originally posted by Decebal

okay, that doesn't make any sense... care to elaborate? 


Because of biblical evidence, Scientific evidence, and evidence from many different ancient white people who described the original Egyptian people as black people, thick lips, kinky hair.. That is why.......


Edited by AfrikaJamaika - 15-Feb-2007 at 17:05
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 19:37
That's circumstantial.
 
Please get your scientific studies that disprove what genetics knows: that caucasian peoples have been going around in North Africa since paleolitical times.
 
Even more, some people believe that caucasians derivated from negroid peoples INSIDE Africa, not outside it.
 
So, please provide evidence. Not just filtered and biassed literary references.
 
 
 
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 20:05
Originally posted by AfrikaJamaika

Originally posted by Decebal

okay, that doesn't make any sense... care to elaborate? 


Because of biblical evidence, Scientific evidence, and evidence from many different ancient white people who described the original Egyptian people as black people, thick lips, kinky hair.. That is why.......
 
AfrikaJamaica what is the point behind your insinstence that ancient egyptians were black as night? I mean, really? No one on this thread has denied the generally accepted fact that ancient Egypt is essentially an african civilization. What is it with your insistence on the color of the skin? Are you trying to exclude all other influences? Aor are you saying that the "invaders" stole Egyptian culture? What is the "hue"Wink of your argument? 


Edited by konstantinius - 15-Feb-2007 at 20:11
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
viola76 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 18:12
pinguin wrote:
 
"That's circumstantial.
 
Please get your scientific studies that disprove what genetics knows: that caucasian peoples have been going around in North Africa since paleolitical times.
 
Even more, some people believe that caucasians derivated from negroid peoples INSIDE Africa, not outside it.
 
So, please provide evidence. Not just filtered and biassed literary references"
 
do you deny that negroid people were in north africa and the middle east since neolithic times?
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 19:39
Originally posted by viola76

... 
do you deny that negroid people were in north africa and the middle east since neolithic times?
 
 
 
No. I don't
 
It is you who deny caucasian people lived in North Africa since neolithic times as well. Prove they were not there.... If you can
 
Pingun
Back to Top
viola76 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 19:50
pinguin wrote:
 
"where on this thread have i said caucasians werent around in north africa neolithic times."
 
where on this thread have i said this?
 
can you show me now please?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 20:08

ooops. I confussed you with other person in the thread. Sorry. My apologies

 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Feb-2007 at 20:09
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 20:11
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by konstantinius

--Woman: Where are you from?
--Me: Well, Greece.
--Woman (pauses for a bit): Is that it?
--Me (surprised): What do you mean?
--Woman: Honey, no one is one thing. You've got many peoples inside
                 you.
--Me (annoyed): Well, I guess, there's been intermixing, Vlach, albanian,
                           Turk, Bulgarian, but let me point you out to genetic
                           research according to which ancient and modern Greeks
                           are quite sim..
--Woman (interrupts): You're the original African!! YOU ARE AFRICA!!!
--Me (flabbergasted): Me? C'mon you're putting me on. Is this some kind
                                  of racial joke? I don't get it.
--Woman (in serious, maternalistic tone). You should know that all Med.
                peoples are tryly Egyptian who are truly African. then you too,
                are African, with a few generations in between.
--Me (angry): Oh yeah? My nigger, you illin'
--Woman: What? What did you call me?
--Me: My nigger. Or should I say my nigger-ess?
--Woman: YOU can't use that word.
--Me: What kind of truly african am I then, if i can't use "nigger"?
--Woman: Just watch your ass, don't say that to a black man, he'll whoop
                 yo' white-boy ass.

Lesson learned: I'm not african enough to be allowed to use the word nigger but I'm african enough to justify someone else's mixed-up racial theories. Which leaves me and the "few generations in between" of my suppossive ancestors in quite of a racial/identity quaqmire and mind-f**k.LOL


LOL! That brought tears to my eyes, its so funny! Bravo, sir, bravo!
 
I concur. It radiates brilliance. Clap
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 20:24
Originally posted by Decebal

First of all, you still don't seem to understand how people adapt. If you take a population who looks like a modern Berber or Egyptian and get to to immigrate to Northern Europe, over a few thousand years those of them who have lighter skin will be more succesful so the overall population will get progressively whiter. Just because all white people originally come from Africa, that does not mean that their ancestors were white when they were in Africa, nor does it mean that they were black at the time they immigrated. Read Maharbbal's post again. Or better yet, read some biology books. Don't mean to sound condescending here, but I thought that this was already established in this discussion.

Also, just because Egypt is in Africa, that does not mean that the sun is so unbearable that people just have to be dark-skinned. Just look at Arabs from places like Oman, Yemen or Saudi Arabia, of which a large part is even more southerly than Egypt. Quite a few of them are fairly light-skinned. Berbers from Morocco, roughly the same latitude as Egypt (and in Africa to boot), are so light-skinned they even have blue eyes! And Berbers are thought to be the original inhabitants of North Africa.

Second of all, Taharqa, Senkamanisken and Shebitqo are from the Nubian dynasty: the Nubians invaded and ruled Egypt during the the 8th century. And everyone knows that the Nubians were what would be commonly described as black. They can't be held as the standard for what the Egyptians looked like.

Now, as far as the appearance of Egyptians: let's look at some Egyptian art. The point to note here is not that I'm saying that Egyptians were "white". They were a multiracial society, with the majority being a shade of "brown" similar to the modern egyptian peasant. I would say that India would be a good comparison: same general latitude, most people are brown, some are very dark, to the point of looking almost black, while some are very light-skinned.

 
This is the mummy of Ramses II, arguably the greatest pharaoh:
 
And some modern egyptians:
 
You see, they are neither black, nor white, though some are fairly dark-skinned. They are just, well... Egyptian. In fact, Egyptians themselves thought of themselves as a race and people aprt.
 
I know one guy that goes to school with me that is from Algeria, who is as light skinned as I am, actually his hair is lighter, and he has blue eyes, and a Palestinian friend of mine who looks more Bosnian than I do, in fact so much, I almost spoke Bosnian to him when I first met him through a mutural friend, until they spoke Arabic. He has hazel hair and blue eyes. I look more middle eastern than some typical "middle easterners."
 
 
Back to Top
viola76 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 20:59
the bust and mummy you are showing are over 1500 years after the first dynasty. we know it became more mixed as it went through its history so the above dosent prove anthing, i might be wasting my time repeating myself but here goes bring me evidence of the people who were living in the nile valley from 7000b.c to around 3000b.c, you have got to research the predynastic people who were living around egypt to know who they were. have you not been reading the thread. but as you have brought pictures ill play your game.
show me a bust or a mummy in the first 4 dynastys of a pharoah that dosent look negroid.
Back to Top
viola76 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 21:03
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 21:05

First, what looks negroid and what doesn't? Remember that is art, and art is not precise. Thor Heyyerdhal though ancient Easter Islanders were White people because theirs moais looked like Europeans LOL

Even if you were right, a dinasty is not a necesarily the same as the people. The mass. In many ocassions one people of different "race" has been in charge of large countries. So, that's not prove either.
 
The only proof for that are genetical studies, and if you study the genographic maps it is CLEAR that people flew inside and outside Africa through through Egypt since paleolithic times. There is NO EVIDENCE of a pure pristine Black Egypt in any time of history.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Feb-2007 at 21:05
Back to Top
viola76 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 21:05
 
I definitely want you to respond to this one, but i bet you dontWink
 
 
"Show me a bust or a mummy in the first 4 dynastys of a pharoah that dosent look negroid."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 21:06
Originally posted by viola76

 
I definitely want you to respond to this one, but i bet you dontWink
 
 
"Show me a bust or a mummy in the first 4 dynastys of a pharoah that dosent look negroid."
 
THIS WAS THE ANSWER. IT WAS JUST ABOVE YOUR POST

First, what looks negroid and what doesn't? Remember that is art, and art is not precise. Thor Heyyerdhal though ancient Easter Islanders were White people because theirs moais looked like Europeans LOL

Even if you were right, a dinasty is not a necesarily the same as the people. The mass. In many ocassions one people of different "race" has been in charge of large countries. So, that's not prove either.
 
The only proof for that are genetical studies, and if you study the genographic maps it is CLEAR that people flew inside and outside Africa through through Egypt since paleolithic times. There is NO EVIDENCE of a pure pristine Black Egypt in any time of history.
 
Pinguin
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.