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Question to Iranians!
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DayI View Drop Down
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Question to Iranians!
    Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 22:26
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by DayI

 what is "wrong translation", the records of Ibn Fazlan? Or any other who did travell into Bulgarian lands and toke notes?
Oh common Anton cut that panturkic crap in here, did I made such claims? By mentioning Turkic presence in ancient Bulgar state am I lebelled as a panturkist....
 
To be honest I don't think this is "panturkist" but you accused me of much more serious things, so I feel free not to control what my fingers type Tongue
Mentioning of Turkic presence in Bulgar state is not bad, as well as even supposing/believing that all Bulgars were Turkic. This is official version and most of historians support it. What is crap to my opinion is that if somebody tries to formulate other theory he is immediately occused in a lot of sht. And when somebody "barks" something against official version he is authomatically fascist. How's that?
Look normally I wouldnt say anything to what you think about a subject, as long it is non-provocative. Anton dont think im not aware of anything about modern Bulgars, I know a lot about them. You also helped me to illustrate the points I did toke years ago, which is that (slav) Bulgars are highly provocated when someone mentions anything like a Turkic presence in ancient Bulgars. I had such discussions before on this board with Bulgarian friends, wich some of them confessed or some still "dance around" that fact. I also do know why, cuz when they hear Turkic they directly link them to Ottoman empire (bashibozuk etc)...


after a few bottle's of Rakia and listening to Azis chalgy, the big day is done for me komshi.
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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barbar View Drop Down
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 06:33
Originally posted by Anton

Barbar. to cool down the discussion we can move it somewhere else. But for the beggining, Name of Kubrat's sons were Asparukh(Isperih, Ispererih etc), Batbayan, Kouber, Kotrag and Alceko. First three are mentioned in Nicephorus.
 
ooops, I made confusion between Ernak and Qubrat. Sorry.  Anyway,  I think you agree Qubrat clan came from Onoghur>Utoghur. All relating these oghur tribes. 
 
I really don't care how Bulgharians identify themselves. Surely Bulgharians in Bulgharia is a slavic nation. However, based on the historical facts, and also present day Bulghars (Volga, Qirim), Bulghars in history was indeed part of Turkic group, surely with the influence by the surrounding other groups. My participation in this discussion was driven by a very distorted notion of a fellow forumer towards dedermining the origin of a historical group.
 
I don't claim this is the origin of the name Bulghar. As we are discussing the meaning of Bulghar also, so here is the usage of this word in modern Uyghur Turkic, you might find interesting:
 
"Bulghash" or "Bulghamaq" is the noun form of the verb "Bulgha", meaning mixing or turmoiling. We have the verb form of Bulghar with a subtle meaning of the consuquence of the act of mixing. 
 
Topa suni bulghar. (The soil turmoils the water. ) 
 
However, I tend to explain the word with the common Turkic tribal name formation, So Bulghar might be Bul-oghar or Bul-oghur, again one oghur tribe. 
 
BTW, one of the On Uyghur tribes in Altai was Qutoghur, you might also find it interesting.
 


Edited by barbar - 03-Feb-2007 at 06:35
Either make a history or become a history.
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azimuth View Drop Down
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 07:20
wow
this thread started as a question to iranians, and the question was answered in first 2 posts.
 
now whats these 4 pages about?!
 
to all members please open new thread in the appropriate sub-forum
 
no need to discuss off topic subjects here,
 
it will not give whatever you are talking about the deserved attention from users if it was discussed in the wrong thread.
 
thanks.
 
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 09:21
Originally posted by DayI

You also helped me to illustrate the points I did toke years ago, which is that (slav) Bulgars are highly provocated when someone mentions anything like a Turkic presence in ancient Bulgars. I had such discussions before on this board with Bulgarian friends, wich some of them confessed or some still "dance around" that fact. I also do know why, cuz when they hear Turkic they directly link them to Ottoman empire (bashibozuk etc)...
 
You might be right to some extent, but you should know that this is only very superficial impression. Try to know your friends better Smile
 
Barbar
However, based on the historical facts, and also present day Bulghars (Volga, Qirim), Bulghars in history was indeed part of Turkic group, surely with the influence by the surrounding other groups. My participation in this discussion was driven by a very distorted notion of a fellow forumer towards dedermining the origin of a historical group.
 
You first try to understand better the arguments of those fellow forumers and their distorted notions and then comment. Because "was indeed part of..." is not an argument at all.
 
 
Sorry for the oftop.


Edited by Anton - 03-Feb-2007 at 09:24
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Bulldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 11:24
DayI
what is "wrong translation", the records of Ibn Fazlan? Or any other who did travell into Bulgarian lands and toke notes?
DayI they were all in a big conspiracy against the Bulgarians of modern day Bulgaria, they just identified them as Turkic to annoy some Bulgarians LOL
 
Bulgars were and are today Turkic, they belonged to the Oghurs that pretty much is the end of the story.
 
Today due to Ottoman-Bulgarian relations some Bulgars don't like to accept this reality, however, their not the only Bulgars infact there more Slav than Bulgar, Bulgar's of Volga Bulgaria are Turkic.
 
It's a pretty pointless argument, no major historian take's these alternate stories seriously at all, the only reason some like to try and promote this pseudo-history is due the dilema of having the same people who apparently are enemies being the same people they are historically.
 
Bulgarians have a great history and seem to be a proud people, there is need to get angry or frustrated, Bulgarians have Thracian, Slavic heritage also some Bulgar.


Edited by Bulldog - 03-Feb-2007 at 15:15
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 15:46
OK, Bulldog, it seems you didn't ask yourself the questions that I proposed.  Do not see the reason for further discussion especially in the Ancient Mesopotamia forum.  You may continue to annoy our proud and brainwashed nation with identification of Bulgars with Turks. Good luck Smile
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An View Drop Down
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Posts: 1 		  Quote An Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2014 at 15:11

I don't  get something...I see it in ALL historical forums...everyone and I say EVERYONE - Bulgarians, Turkish, Greece, Macedonians, Rumanians -  they never seems to try to find the reason behind other nations climes. Do you really think that if there was a reason to think that Bulgarians are Turkish without the benefit of controversial evidences Bulgarians will continue think opposite? Why no one concentrate ever to find where, in which period of the history the things might get mixed and why? History is a big puzzle and fortunately includes all of us......for example I have no idea why everyone speak about "Turks “ now  and not about Ottomans...as far as I know ottomans were the ones who concurred Europe, not the Turks...as far as i know for ottomans was insulting to call them Turk!......todays "Turkish"  people are theirs descendance~and seems for them normal to call themselves Turk – why?  ...and why they were called ottomans  and not "turk" at that time….simple things like this are just ignored…...Bulgarians definetlly seems something different...the linguistic translation of words show great differences for one and the same thing  on Turkish and Bulgarian or Persian language similarities in original words are found more between Iranian and Bulgarian , as well many toponimmes and last decate  DNA also proves it....so, there is a  seed of truth as well...and again ...in any clime stays something behind and if a clime controverts another - there is something wrong in one or the orther side or in both! ….and needs investigation, not immediate alienation…. Seems that historians are not capable of doing this…like us they are separate on fighting teams completely ignoring each other’s evidences…why should I be surprised that we are doing the same….:(Unhappy 
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medenaywe View Drop Down
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2014 at 15:44
Good questions,An!SmileNice to meet you here.
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