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Why Sweden fail to build a strong empire

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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Sweden fail to build a strong empire
    Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 11:30
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


Cool! :D I hope they'll keep to history and not follow the current  distorted mythical view that is  prevalent in leftist Sweden nowadays (ie that Charles XII was some kind of pre-modern Hitler starting wars in every direction).
 
Why are the Swedes so critical? Only because Carl XII finally lost the war? It's not him who started this war after all.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 13:41

Originally posted by ataman


Why are the Swedes so critical? Only because Carl XII finally lost the war? It's not him who started this war after all.

I don't know. My guess is leftist history writing (=everything was bad and evil before social democrates gained power) coupled with neo-Nazis using Charles XII as "their" hero.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 14:06
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


I don't know. My guess is leftist history writing (=everything was bad and evil before social democrates gained power) coupled with neo-Nazis using Charles XII as "their" hero.
 
Could you explain why he is a hero for neo-nazis?
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 14:40

Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Styrbiorn


I don't know. My guess is leftist history writing (=everything was bad and evil before social democrates gained power) coupled with neo-Nazis using Charles XII as "their" hero.


Could you explain why he is a hero for neo-nazis?


Neo-nazis aren't exactly the most intelligent of people. "He kicked ass, so he is our hero!!" is probably close to their line of thought. That he was for example, a fan of Turkish culture, they probably missed. Another hero of theirs is Engelbrekt, a 15th century anti-authoritan rebel who was used anti-Nazi front figure during the 1930s. If there is logic in their devotion it's a pretty flawed one.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 15:36
Lol... speaking of logic...

Anyways, if there is a DVD of the movie, and in Estonia, I'd probably find it. I don't think it is however, I suppose they'd bother to translate it as well (subtitles that is).
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:39
Originally posted by rider

Lol... speaking of logic...

Anyways, if there is a DVD of the movie, and in Estonia, I'd probably find it. I don't think it is however, I suppose they'd bother to translate it as well (subtitles that is).
 
I hope they will, they even made an English language version of the movie website.   Smile
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 18:00
I saw this movie. The story itself is not that interesting as I hoped. Though one could feel some anti-Polish attitudes.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 21:50
Where did you see these attitudes? I would say the movie was anti Russian, bacause the leading Polish character, was revenging the Russians because they cruely killed her family etc.
 
Even the old traditional Moscow strelets escaped in Poland from the Peter the great.
 
I was actually surprized that the movie was not pro-Russian.
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 03:21
Originally posted by tommy

During the age of discovety and the imperial age, why Sweden failed to build up a strong empire, she was strong, and had tradition of oversea exploration, even Portugal and Dutch could.
 
it was difficoult for Sweden to build a colonial empire, also because the threath of Russia. Anyway with skandinavia and most of the Balti, Sweden had one of the largest empire in Europe.
 
 


Edited by Mumbloid - 05-Jun-2007 at 03:22
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 04:17
Originally posted by Mumbloid

it was difficoult for Sweden to build a colonial empire, also because the threath of Russia. Anyway with skandinavia and most of the Balti, Sweden had one of the largest empire in Europe. 
 
I think we should begin this discussion from basic information. I mean, we should specify what was the population and the area of Sweden and its neighbours in the Swedish height days (in 1648? or in 1660?).
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 04:30
1648... is the date when Sweden took control of the Baltics if I remember correctly.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 04:45

1648? Ok.

In 1648 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had 11 mln people and 990.000 km2
 
Do you know the population and the are of Sweden and other Swedish neighbours in 1648? German countries altogether had less than 10 mln people (according to 'Historia Niemiec XVI-XVIII wieku' / 'History of Germany in 16-18th c.' by Almut Bues, p. 127). Russia had about 13 mln.


Edited by ataman - 05-Jun-2007 at 04:52
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Mumbloid

it was difficoult for Sweden to build a colonial empire, also because the threath of Russia. Anyway with skandinavia and most of the Balti, Sweden had one of the largest empire in Europe. 
 
I think we should begin this discussion from basic information. I mean, we should specify what was the population and the area of Sweden and its neighbours in the Swedish height days (in 1648? or in 1660?).


That's basicly why the empire was doomed to fail. The population of the core of Sweden (modern Sweden+Finland) was only about 1.6 million, with another 2-300,000 in the Baltic provinces. The population of Denmark-Norway was roughly similar, while Russia and Poland had about 13 million each. During the Great Northern War, Sweden had about a 1-20 population disadvantage.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 04:58
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


That's basicly why the empire was doomed to fail. The population of the core of Sweden (modern Sweden+Finland) was only about 1.6 million, with another 2-300,000 in the Baltic provinces. The population of Denmark-Norway was roughly similar, while Russia and Poland had about 13 million each.
 
I think that it is not such easy thing. Sweden could ally with some its bigger neighbour against another bigger neighbour.
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


During the Great Northern War, Sweden had about a 1-20 population disadvantage.
 
I have read many times about this 1:20 disproportion. But I have no idea who and how specified this number. For example I don't know if PLC was counted as an ally or an enemy of Sweden in that war? That is the question Smile
Part of Poland with Polish king S.Leszczyński were allied with Sweden, while another part of Poland with Polish king August II the Strong were allied with Russia.
 
 


Edited by ataman - 05-Jun-2007 at 05:02
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 06:39
Originally posted by ataman



I think that it is not such easy thing. Sweden could ally with some its bigger neighbour against another bigger neighbour.
 

Who? They were all busy fighting each other. An attempt with Turkey was made, but failed.

Originally posted by ataman

 
I have read many times about this 1:20 disproportion. But I have no idea who and how specified this number. For example I don't know if PLC was counted as an ally or an enemy of Sweden in that war? That is the question Smile
Part of Poland with Polish king S.Leszczyński were allied with Sweden, while another part of Poland with Polish king August II the Strong were allied with Russia.
 
 

Just add the populations of Russia, Denmark-Norway, Saxony(-Poland, 1700-1704, 1709-1721), Hannover and Prussia.

Leszczyński was a puppet installed by Charles XII, not an ally. He was totally relying on Swedish arms, not supporting it.
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 08:13
The support Sweden received was mostly French subsidies. The French expected their money back of course, so making profitable wars was necessary.
 
The only instances of combined Swedish + ally armies I can recall come from the 30 years war, teaming up with Saxons and French at certain moments. Need to snoop around to try to state anything definite though.
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 08:27
Originally posted by ataman

I think that it is not such easy thing. Sweden could ally with some its bigger neighbour against another bigger neighbour
Well it did. Allies have limited usefulness though.
For starters it should be a powerful Protestant state. That leaves the Netherlands and England. Denmark is The Arch Enemy.
 
The English were hardly very useful in a continental war of the 17th c. Charles X did offer Cromwell to divvy up Denmark-Norway at one point in the 1650's, but Cromwell felt iffy about one Protestant ruler trying to liquidate another. He would have preferred Charles X to march on Rome, depose the Pope and trigger the Second Coming of Christ, or so. Besides he died before he could reply properly, and England got more urgent matters to attend to. The English simply were a bit to preoccupied sorting themselves out.
 
The Netherlands, again, wouldn't send land armies in support. They were however major providers of financing, know-how etc. to get Swedish manufacture etc. going. The Dutch interest was however to make sure the balance of power in the Baltic wasn't too badly upset. As soon as Sweden looked like overtaking Denmark, about mid 17th c., the Dutch regularily declared for Denmark. Whichever of these rivals got the Dutch navy on their side got the upper hand in the naval control of the Baltic.
 
Sweden's most reliable allies did turn out to be Catholic France and Muslim Ottomans. But both had their limitatons as allies. The alliances were based on having mutual enemies anyway. Sweden, Ottomans and French all had beef with the Habsburgs. The Swedes and the Ottomans had a common problem with Russia. France on the other hand had no real interest in some Russian adventure. And having France as it's most important ally, meant England wasn't going to be overly friendly. Scotland would be, but the Scots weren't quite of the same order of magnitude.
 
I'd say Sweden made the alliances it could, and got the use possible out of them. It just wasn't enough to overcome the structural liabilities in the imperial project.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:17
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by ataman



I think that it is not such easy thing. Sweden could ally with some its bigger neighbour against another bigger neighbour.
 

Who? They were all busy fighting each other. An attempt with Turkey was made, but failed.
 
Styrbiorn, I am confused. Which war do you mean?

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by ataman

 
I have read many times about this 1:20 disproportion. But I have no idea who and how specified this number. For example I don't know if PLC was counted as an ally or an enemy of Sweden in that war? That is the question Smile
Part of Poland with Polish king S.Leszczyński were allied with Sweden, while another part of Poland with Polish king August II the Strong were allied with Russia.  

Leszczyński was a puppet installed by Charles XII, not an ally. He was totally relying on Swedish arms, not supporting it.
 
Yes, Leszczyński was a Karl XII's puppet and therefore his army supported Swedish one against Polish adherents of August II the Strong and against Russian army. Leszczyński's army sometimes counted more than 20.000 soldiers (the Poles and Lithuanians). In that time it was quite strong army. Leszczyński's soldiers participated in a few big battles against Polish-Russian coalition, like the battle of Kalisz 1706 or the battle of Koniecpol 1708.
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Just add the populations of Russia, Denmark-Norway, Saxony(-Poland, 1700-1704, 1709-1721), Hannover and Prussia.
 
Styrbiorn, the turning point in the GNW was the battle of Poltava 1709. In that time:
1. Saxony wasn't at war with Sweden
2. Part of Poland (Leszczyński's and Mazepa's adherents) supported Sweden
So it wasn't the disproportion 1:20 which led to Karl XII's failure. In the battle of Poltava disproportion of forces was only about 2:1 for Russians.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:27
Originally posted by Joinville

The only instances of combined Swedish + ally armies I can recall come from the 30 years war, teaming up with Saxons and French at certain moments. Need to snoop around to try to state anything definite though.
 
Joinville, in 1656 Sweden was allied with Prussia (both armies participated in the battle of Warsaw 1656), Transylvania and Cossacks. But it wasn't strong enough coalition. I think that Sweden had bad politic of alliances. For example in 1655 Sweden could ally either with Poland against Russia or with Russia against Poland. Both coalitions could be profitable for Sweden. But Karl X Gustav didn't ally neither with Poland nor with Russia. So Poland and Russia signed temporary truce and in next years they fought against Sweden.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:28
Originally posted by ataman

 
Styrbiorn, I am confused. Which war do you mean?

Joinville explained it pretty thouroughly, but what I meant was that Sweden's strongest ally, France, was embroiled neck-deep in the War of the Spanish Succesion. The English were trying to arrange an alliance with Sweden, but that had brought them into war against the French and opened yet another front, certainly not a smart option.

 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 
Styrbiorn, the turning point in the GNW was the battle of Poltava 1709. In that time:
1. Saxony wasn't at war with Sweden
2. Part of Poland (Leszczyński's and Mazepa's adherents) supported Sweden
So it wasn't the disproportion 1:20 which led to Karl XII's failure. In the battle of Poltava disproportion of forces was only about 2:1 for Russians.

Err? Weird logic. I'm counting the whole war, not just one instance in time. Saxony was not formally at war because they had been crushed by the Swedes during the first five years of the war. Would you say France couldn't count on the allied side during WWII just because the Germans overran them early? Leszczyński's and Mazepa's help were marginal at best. 1:20 proportion is one of population, which means why Sweden couldn't maintain a great power status in the long run, it's not about actual numbers on the field.



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