Nationalism- 7 Absolute Truths

The difference lies in "excusing"/justifying" or objectively "explain" a defeat.

Originally posted by nikodemos While you can hear many people blaming the Great Powers for the role they played in Greek history,seldom do you hear anyone putting the blame for the failure primarily on the lack of organisation,the political instability,the bad strategy and tactics etc.When there is a catastrophe the role of the "others",especially the Great Powers is stressed too much by the nationalists.On the other hand when there is� an intervention in favour of the Greek interests it is easily forgotten- for example the intervention of the Great Powers after the Greco-turkish war in 1897 which was salvation for the newly established Greek kingdom or the intervention in the war of Indipendence which has been already mentioned.

As Brainstorm said "Great Powers" don't act sentimentally
but they act for their own interests.
I'll agree with you about 1897 but when you refer to this you should also refer to the role of these "Great Powers" in Northern Epirus issue.It was liberated two times by the Greek army,Himariotes declared autonomy etc but "Great Power's" interests directed them to give this area to Albania.

Originally posted by nikodemos seldom do you hear anyone putting the blame for the failure primarily on the lack of organisation,the political instability,the bad strategy and tactics etc.

With this rationale Brainstorm could say that we are trying to find excuses to justify our defeat with stereotypical hellenic demerits(which according to Brainstorm were created after the creation of a superiority image).



    
    

Edited by Patrinos - 03-Jan-2007 at 20:24

First of all i must clear up something.I didn't open the thread to generally "blame" nationalism.
It was something more specific.Dealing with people -in life and here- i found out (and it was quiet a surprise) that some specific patterns,mottos,beliefs are almost identical between people of different cultures and nations who maybe "love their nation too much".

Some people claimed that they love their country and not their government so they are not nationalists.I think this is a wrong definition-Most of the times nationalists blame their gov. for not being dedicated to the nation so much.

Of course it's not bad to love your country and its people-not at all.As it's not bad to love your village or your neighborhood.But it would sound insane to create myths for your neighborhood and to believe in them and so to base your love on them and not on the good memories of the place and the people there!

Something else: The thread was general and didn't refer to any particular state.When i was asked i answered "we-our Nation".
This of course doesn't exclude my homeland -Greece.

I intend to go 1-1 for all these myths comparing different nations similar myths in an upcoming post.

@File Patrine

Originally posted by Patrinos Brainstorm I suppose I wil be considered a nationalist now because I don't agree totaly with your "truths".

If you don't agree with these truths i can't see why i should call u nationalist

To say that I'm just a patriot doesn't say anything because as you said and the 99% of the nationalists believe that they are patriots...so...think whatever you want

Yes,but this doesn't mean the opposite too - i never said that 99% of patriots are nationalists.
Also i m not used to put on labels on people.After all most of people who believe in these myths are not skinheads or fundamentalists.
The bad/sad thing is that such ideas could rise fanaticism in tense periods and the even worst that they could direct creative powers of a nation to a wrong way.

I won't go 1 on 1 commenting because as  i already mentioned my post was general-I ll answer only in some points.

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.2:We are the Chosen ones."We" have some unique qualities as a Nation (bravery,intelligence...it depends..) As a result "we" have achieved some things others could never imagine :"we" re the first who did many things.And don't get me as schizophrenic but sometimes i think we are "God's chosen Nation"! I also believe that we have unique demerits such as lack of organization,tension to civil wars and conflicts between us etc etc.As I recognise important merits of other nations(e.g the organization of Germans,the diligence of Japanese etc) I recognise our merits too.I don't think that you've ever heard any serious Greek to claim racial superiority,in the other hand nobody can dispute the importance of the Greek culture.

Even these "unique demerits" reinforce the icon of "our uniqueness".
U see..:lack of organization -if we were organized we deserve to be..
civil wars:if we didnt fight each other we would ...win.
etc etc
It's a matter of organization of a specific society and not a "national matter"
Most of Greeks -and most of other people-don't claim directly racial superiority because this would sound quiet racist.
On the other hand feeling "unique" automatically places u on another level-"We are intelligent and charismatic but lack of organization,conflicts or whatever is to blamed for we re not what we should be."
After all when u create an image of superiority u must create the reasons of loss or failure.
On the other hand i m not sure if any of these people boasting of Greek culture have anything to do with culture.

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.3:The lost brothers.. Brainstorm you are confusing what the majority of Greeks think with what some(few) nationalists do.You can give some examples in which lost or past "compatriots" do you reffer,you should also add where you've heard/read this because if you are looking in schoolbooks("official history") or in serious and wellknown Greek historians I don't think you will find anything...

I ll write it once more-I wasnt particularly refering in Greece.I m very happy about the progress is made -and still being made in greek education.
Nationalist opposed and still opposing every such new attempt.
As for "indigenous" and "lost brothers" these "truths" may not be so widespread in Greece but they live in a significant proportion of extreme nationalists and sometimes influence many other people who never read much about history.

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.5:Few vs Many. Brainstorm I don't know when exactly we were arithmetically superior...

Well..it's quiet useless to go 1 o n 1.Just to mention that in almost all Byzantine manuals it was written that a general should avoid battle at all until he ll have superiority in numbers.
To go to the recent history in Greco-Turkish war 1919-23 Greek  forces were superior.
Anyway...it's a common equation to most of "national histories" (there is a thread "your nations' thermopylae".It goes smth like:
We r few but confront/win=we are braver,stronger=we r superior (even in ideals)/we have the right by our site (and sometimes God too)

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.6:The Great Powers. Again you are getting categorical.I will start from the times of the Independence War and not earlier.I think that the name Metternich should say a lot to you...In the other hand after six years of war the Three Powers(Britain,France,Russia) helped us with the ship-battle in Navarino. Except from the many Greek mistakes in Minor Asia campaign I suppose you've read about the role of the Great Powers of the time,when the British,American etc ships left the Smyrniotes helpless and left them slaughtered by tsetes(turkish irregulars) or drown in the Gulf of Smyrna in their try to reach the ships...Why we should forget the role of the Great Powers after the end of WW2...five years we were killing each other without knowing that Stalin hadn't included Greece in his sphere of influence,so any Communist "success" in the civil war was futile...Don't you remember Clinton appologising some years ago,about the American participation/help in the Dictatorship of the Colonels??

Why do u -or any other- think that "Great Powers" give a sh*t (positively or negatively) about a particular state?
International politics are not a matter of emotion!
It's just a matter of these countries interests.-They act moved by their countries (which includes economical lobies ) interests and they try to direct the situation to a more profitable way for them.

Great Powers stood neutral (if not hostile) to Greek Independence when it bursted.For many reasons(this is not the place to mention) they engaged in Navarino naval battle and destroyed Turkish-Egyptian fleet in 1827.
Greek Revolution stays alive and Greece becomes independent in 1830.
Why?
Was this because they hated Turks and wanted to help poor Greeks?
After 10 years ,in 1840 they stop Egypt of destroying Ottoman Power and save Ottoman Empire.
Why?
...It's simple...it's quiet naive to believe that Countries act because of emotion in International politics..nobody hates "us".In fact nobody takes that much care about "us"-"We"* are not the center of the world!

*again a general mention-goes to any "we".

That's all for now.



Edited by Brainstorm - 02-Jan-2007 at 19:22

Brainstorm I suppose I wil be considered a nationalist now because I don't agree totaly with your "truths".To say that I'm just a patriot doesn't say anything because as you said and the 99% of the nationalists believe that they are patriots...so...think whatever you want

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.1: .We are Indigenous.Or at least ancient.Much ancient.Older than all "our" villainous neighbors for sure!!(Of course this is a reason this lands belongs to us since God created Earth.)

Brainstorm you spoke about the "national education".I've never read anything about autochthonity in schoolbooks or any serious Greek historian.I always read about the Indoeuropean speakers who came from the north etc etc.As for how "ancient" we are,the language we speak gives many clues...

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.2:We are the Chosen ones."We" have some unique qualities as a Nation (bravery,intelligence...it depends..) As a result "we" have achieved some things others could never imagine :"we" re the first who did many things.And don't get me as schizophrenic but sometimes i think we are "God's chosen Nation"!

I also believe that we have unique demerits such as lack of organization,tension to civil wars and conflicts between us etc etc.As I recognise important merits of other nations(e.g the organization of Germans,the diligence of Japanese etc) I recognise our merits too.I don't think that you've ever heard any serious Greek to claim racial superiority,in the other hand nobody can dispute the importance of the Greek culture.
As for "God's chosen Nation"...do you really think that any Greek believes this?I thought only Israelites had this opinion...

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.3:The lost brothers.Many compatriots of us live enslaved.Some times they may even not know they are like "Us".It doesnt matter if they have other culture.They belong to "our Nation" .The same (not to tell even more) applies for some people of the past.Modern corrupted History distorted reality and hidden that so many nations of the past were in fact "Our Nation".

Brainstorm you are confusing what the majority of Greeks think with what some(few) nationalists do.You can give some examples in which lost or past "compatriots" do you reffer,you should also add where you've heard/read this because if you are looking in schoolbooks("official history") or in serious and wellknown Greek historians I don't think you will find anything...

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.4:Defense.Our Nation is in constant defense throughout history.All or almost all of the wars we engaged in ,were to defend "our" Land and Ideals.Even if we entered someone else's land this was to prevent the aggressiveness of our disgusting Enemies.Not to say that somewhere in time we had this Land ..so historically it will belong to us till Eternity! :Wherever a glorious foot of some compatriot stepped is Ours!

As you all know Greece lies in a very special position in the world map.Any Asian invader should pass over Greece to continue his "course" to Europe and many from the north wanted through centuries a free way to the Aegean.Of course I admit the imperialistic character of Alexander's conquest and more recently in the Minor Asia campaign(1920-22).The latter started as a campaign to free Greeks and after a point indeed became an imperialistic war when the new heads of the state decided to reach and conquer Ankara!!

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.5:Few vs Many. It's well known that "we" always confronted more ,better trained, better equipped Enemies and guess what...we crushed them.Or at least we fought heroic. Anyway.."our Nation" always opposed bravery to numbers..courage to better arms.."our" Ideals to the barbaric strength of our savage Enemy.

I'll let Makrygiannis to answer to your opinion:
" Εκεί-οπού 'φκειανα τις θέσες εις τους Μύλους ήρθε ο Ντερνύς να με ιδή. Μου λέγει� " Τι κάνεις αυτού; Αυτές οι θέσες είναι αδύνατες� τι πόλεμον θα κάμετε με τον" " Μπραϊμη αυτού; -Του λέγω, είναι αδύνατες οι θέσες κ' εμείς, όμως είναι " δυνατός ο Θεός οπού μας προστατεύει� και θα δείξωμεν την τύχη μας 'σ αυτές τις θέσες τις αδύνατες. Κι' αν είμαστε ολίγοι εις το πλήθος του Μπραϊμη, παρηγοριώμαστε μ' έναν τρόπον, ότι η τύχη μας έχει τους 'Ελληνες πάντοτε ολίγους. 'Οτι αρχή και τέλος, παλαιόθεν και ως τώρα, όλα τα θερία πολεμούν να μας φάνε και δεν μπορούνε� τρώνε από 'μάς και μένει και μαγιά� Και οι ολίγοι αποφασίζουν να πεθάνουν� κι' όταν κάνουν αυτείνη την απόφασιν, λίγες φορές χάνουν και πολλές κερδαίνουν. Η θέση οπού είμαστε σήμερα εδώ είναι τοιούτη� και θα ιδούμεν την τύχη μας οι αδύνατοι με τους " δυνατούς. -"Τρε-μπιεν"

And a translation:
"When I fixed our positions in Mylous Derigny came(a French officer) to see me.He says to me:"What are you doing here?These positions are weak,what war are you gonna make against Ibrahim here?-I say to him,the positions are weak as we are,but the God is strong that protect us and we will show our luck in these positions.And if we are few in numbers in contrast to Ibrahim,we console orselves in one way,that fate made us Greeks always small in number.That from the beginning until today,all the "wild beasts" fight to "eat" us and they can't,they "eat" but the ferment survives.And again few decide to die,and when they make this decision few times lose and many times win.This is our position,and we gonna see our luck,the weak against the stong.and the French replies..-Tre bien...and he leaves."

Brainstorm I don't know when exactly we were arithmetically superior...

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.6:The Great Powers.These ignorant degenerated nations...They always stand against us.They fight us with every way-open or at the backstage.They support our filthy enemies since God created Earth...

Again you are getting categorical.I will start from the times of the Independence War and not earlier.I think that the name Metternich should say a lot to you...In the other hand after six years of war the Three Powers(Britain,France,Russia) helped us with the ship-battle in Navarino.
Except from the many Greek mistakes in Minor Asia campaign I suppose you've read about the role of the Great Powers of the time,when the British,American etc ships left the Smyrniotes helpless and left them slaughtered by tsetes(turkish irregulars) or drown in the Gulf of Smyrna in their try to reach the ships...Why we should forget the role of the Great Powers after the end of WW2...five years we were killing each other without knowing that Stalin hadn't included Greece in his sphere of influence,so any Communist "success" in the civil war was futile...Don't you remember Clinton appologising some years ago,about the American participation/help in the Dictatorship of the Colonels??

Originally posted by Brainstorm Truth n.7:The Traitor.Our endless bravery in war cannot be defeated.If we are defeated this is not real-Only a traitor is responsible for this...Someone opened the gate-our brave compatriots would never turn to rout.There is a conspiracy between this...We are invincible ,so that's the only logical explanation i can find!!I hope you are all convinced now about how unique and superb is my Nation... I could hear your opinions and examples as well as some more absolute Truths about...Regards

    
When you say about a gate I suppose you mean the Kerkoporta in Constantinoupolis..that is just a "myth" or better a tradition...as it may be Ephialtes' occasion.But I can't characterise with any other adjective except traitor those who were responsible for the two civil wars during the War of Indpendence who almost destroyed what others have achieved with fights.As traitors(and idiots) I consider Gounaris et al when even though they've promised before the elections that they will stop the war(Minor Asia campaign) and after their dominance in the elections they continued and...they lost...along with thousand Greek lifes.

    

Edited by Patrinos - 02-Jan-2007 at 12:25

I lived under the military dictatorship of Pinochet during my teens and early youth, before I left the country for a while. That made me understand one can love our own people and our own land with passion without sharing the ideas or goals of a ilegitimate government.

Originally posted by Tobodai I will break with normalcy and actually agree with the majority of AE for once.  Nationalism is the system whereby civic ideology is watered down and absorbed by those with nothing to be proud of as individuals, therefore they must be proud of the nation that they had to do nothing but be born into since they have no other redeeming factors.   But such empty and hollow people will always exist, and there are a few things worse than nationalism, so on occasion usuing a civic religion to say, combat a spiritual one is justified.  Think of it as the lesser of two evils.   However a truly virtuous society needs no such systems, as a virtous society would produce far less people in need of large group validation.

So people are hollow and empty because they are proud of their country? That is complete bull. People are proud of the countries, partly because they are from there, but mainly because of the history of their country, and the accomplishments of their country.

And as to a 'civic religion' combating a spirtitual one: WTF?
What is your problem with religion? It gives peope hope and contentment, among other things.

I love China (mainland, Taiwan, HK)

Edited by Dream208 - 01-Jan-2007 at 21:26

In Portugal this days patriotism is no more.

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by Adalwolf   I agree!   Although I preffer a little more mystical love to the Mother Land, the almost pagan godness in whose womb we grew up and were our death body will rest.   I have inherit that conception from the Ancient Native Americans of my country, and I believe is a lot more transcendent that just a love to the current government in power.   Penguin

That is a good point, Penguin. Loving your country does not mean you have to love the current government.

Being patriotic does not mean blind faith in the government, you do not even have to like the current government. Instead of blind faith, people should have a love of the country as a whole, the land, the history, and the people, and a desire to see their country prosper.

Originally posted by Adalwolf I see nothing wrong with nationalism. What is wrong with loving your country and wanting to see it succeed and improve itself? Absolutely nothing!

Edited by pinguin - 29-Dec-2006 at 23:21