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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan - Taliban Hub
    Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:34

Pakistan leader says militants will be forced out

March 1, 2007

ISLAMABAD (AFP) - President Pervez Musharraf said Pakistan will force foreign Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants to leave the troubled tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, state media reported Thursday.

General Musharraf -- told by US Vice President Dick Cheney on a surprise visit earlier this week to crack down on insurgents -- also urged Pakistanis to help by informing the authorities about extremist suspects.

"People have come there from outside. They are living in our mountains and spreading terrorism not just in Pakistan but in the entire world," the official Associated Press of Pakistan quoted Musharraf as saying late Wednesday.

"These people are putting Pakistan in danger. These people should leave and go, otherwise we will have to deal with them and we are dealing with them," he told a large public meeting in southern Sindh province.

The impact of terrorism was being felt throughout Pakistan and it was the public's duty to help, Musharraf said. "Identify and point out those who have such tendencies and inform the law enforcement agencies," he said.

Musharraf, who has escaped three assassination attempts blamed on Islamic militants opposed to his fight against extremism, also said that the country's development was being harmed by fundamentalism.

"We have to check such tendencies, otherwise the country will not be able to move on to the path of progress and development," he added.

Cheney on Monday said Washington was concerned that Al-Qaeda was regrouping in Pakistan's northwestern tribal zone and that Taliban rebels based there were preparing for a spring offensive against foreign troops in Afghanistan.

The US vice president's brief trip to Islamabad came amid reports that US aid could be cut if Pakistan did not take more action to hunt down Islamic militants.

The next day Cheney was forced to take shelter when a Taliban suicide bomber blew himself up at the gate of the main US base in Afghanistan. Cheney was unhurt but Afghan officials said 20 people were killed.

Pakistan says it has killed up to 1,000 militants and lost 700 soldiers in military action in the tribal areas since 2003, but it has since signed peace deals with militants in North and South Waziristan districts.

US and Afghan officials say attacks across the border have soared as a result of the pact.



Edited by Afghanan - 01-Mar-2007 at 12:35
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:36
Even the dictator admits it...yet you still dont?

Edited by Afghanan - 01-Mar-2007 at 12:36
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:47
Originally posted by Afghanan

I want you to answer, my point of this thread is to spark an honest debate on Pakistani meddling in Afghanistn affairs


The debate is sparked. We are debating. Clap

Originally posted by Afghanan



(not about warlords, not about innocent Afghan girls being raped - both of which you've never shown to have interest in before BTW).
 


Sorry but the warlord article is highly relevent since I showed that there is a  significant number of people in afghanistan, both NA and Taliban/pakhtuns who are arming themselves to the teeth evidently without ISI involvement and apparently even against the wishes of ISI.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Do you believe Fundamentalist parties in Pakistan and elements within the Pakistani government are indirectly or directly supporting the Taliban?


Maybe the Taliban is indirectly supporting elements within the pakistani govt and fundementalist parties. After all it is millions of Afghans who have infiltrated into pakistan over a border they do not recognise and are infesting all aspects of the previously more liberal and tolerant and irreligious pakistan. I showed in one of my articles how the Taliban within Afghanistan have enough money to buy up all grey market weaponry in northern afghanistan---does that look like they need ISI to arm them?

Originally posted by Afghanan


 How can you think that an armed movement with SAMs, and the capability of flying to Arab countries without Visas does not have a "STATE" supporter?


I dunno what you are talking about regarding travel to arab countries. See my post above regarding the SAMs. How on earth is the ISI responsible for RUSSIAN MANUFACTURED SAMS reaching the hands of the taliban?

Originally posted by Afghanan


If you do, do you think this is a good policy to interfere, how will this help Pakistan in the long run?
 


Everybody is interfering in Afghanistan including US forces who have no business being there in the first place, they refused to trade for Osama who the white house claimed was the reason for interest in afghanistan in the first place. Its likely Osama has been dead or missing for years judging by the forged video with some pathetic bloated body double claiming responsibilty for 911.  The US/UK axis is likely interfering in Afghanistan for its own neocolonial agenda most likely--what exactly it is I do not know. Pakistan is likely interfering in Afghanistan because that is its back door and for all you know the US/UK and NATO are cooperating covertly with Pakistan in ways you cannot even imagine.

Your simplistic spammy onesided articles that you find don't really illuminate anything new.
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:56
Originally posted by Afghanan

Even the dictator admits it...yet you still dont?


Admits what? What are you talking about. If you are referring to musharraf he can probably score a higher voter approval in pakistan than puppetzai can get outside Kabul.

And show me where Musharaff says that the ISI is financing and arming the Taliban please. Thats what I am denying so since you claim "the dictator" admits it show me where.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 13:03
Originally posted by maqsad

Originally posted by Afghanan

I want you to answer, my point of this thread is to spark an honest debate on Pakistani meddling in Afghanistn affairs


The debate is sparked. We are debating. Clap

Originally posted by Afghanan



(not about warlords, not about innocent Afghan girls being raped - both of which you've never shown to have interest in before BTW).
 


Sorry but the warlord article is highly relevent since I showed that there is a  significant number of people in afghanistan, both NA and Taliban/pakhtuns who are arming themselves to the teeth evidently without ISI involvement and apparently even against the wishes of ISI.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Do you believe Fundamentalist parties in Pakistan and elements within the Pakistani government are indirectly or directly supporting the Taliban?


Maybe the Taliban is indirectly supporting elements within the pakistani govt and fundementalist parties. After all it is millions of Afghans who have infiltrated into pakistan over a border they do not recognise and are infesting all aspects of the previously more liberal and tolerant and irreligious pakistan. I showed in one of my articles how the Taliban within Afghanistan have enough money to buy up all grey market weaponry in northern afghanistan---does that look like they need ISI to arm them?

Originally posted by Afghanan


 How can you think that an armed movement with SAMs, and the capability of flying to Arab countries without Visas does not have a "STATE" supporter?


I dunno what you are talking about regarding travel to arab countries. See my post above regarding the SAMs. How on earth is the ISI responsible for RUSSIAN MANUFACTURED SAMS reaching the hands of the taliban?

Originally posted by Afghanan


If you do, do you think this is a good policy to interfere, how will this help Pakistan in the long run?
 


Everybody is interfering in Afghanistan including US forces who have no business being there in the first place, they refused to trade for Osama who the white house claimed was the reason for interest in afghanistan in the first place. Its likely Osama has been dead or missing for years judging by the forged video with some pathetic bloated body double claiming responsibilty for 911.  The US/UK axis is likely interfering in Afghanistan for its own neocolonial agenda most likely--what exactly it is I do not know. Pakistan is likely interfering in Afghanistan because that is its back door and for all you know the US/UK and NATO are cooperating covertly with Pakistan in ways you cannot even imagine.

Your simplistic spammy onesided articles that you find don't really illuminate anything new.
 
Instead of posting articles on women being raped in Northern Afghanistan, you could have started actually discussing the issue, you would have both of us much time in that regards.
 
I agree that:
 
1->  Everybody is interefering in the country. 
 
Iran - Supporting the Northern Alliance and Shiite Militants.  They were also blamed for a terrorist attack on Sunni and Shiites, to try to spark a war in Herat.  (Herat historically never having a Sunni/Shiite problem).  The news that Baluchis from Pakistan are bieng covertly supported by the US to destabilze SE Iran, may encite them to disturb peace in Herat at behest of the US.  An article that was recently published stated that Iran would even be likely in aiding the Taliban against the US.
 
Pakistan ->  This topic pretty much states the point.  Control Indian interests, Control Afghanistan and secure Durand Line, Islamic caliphate (via the Fundamentalists),  Enough said.
 
US ->  Strategic staging point for any war against China or Iran.
 
India ->  To "check" Pakistani strategic goals.
 
And then theres the drug smugglers, operating from US, Europe, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, African states that come to the border to get their shipments.  All these factions have lots of interest in agitating the war indefinitely, probably using many sides against each other for maximum security of shipments.
 
--
 
The question is how is a Taliban government in Afghanistan a benefit for Pakistan?  History will attest, the Taliban, and Afghanistan for that matter, is unable to be controlled by foreign powers. 
 
Giving the Taliban more power, means strengthening the jihadists and Taliban in Pakistan. 
 
How is this a viable strategic goal? 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 13:24
Originally posted by Afghanan


Instead of posting articles on women being raped in Northern Afghanistan, you could have started actually discussing the issue, you would have both of us much time in that regards.
 
The article on the weapons trade in North Afganistan was relevant though. I just wanted to show that there are articles out there that turn yours upside down, the way you make things sound that is.

Originally posted by Afghanan


 
The question is how is a Taliban government in Afghanistan a benefit for Pakistan?  History will attest, the Taliban, and Afghanistan for that matter, is unable to be controlled by foreign powers. 
 
Giving the Taliban more power, means strengthening the jihadists and Taliban in Pakistan. 
 
How is this a viable strategic goal? 


History will also attest that Taliban and Afghanistan for that matter can be pushed over and turned to rubble most easily by foreign powers. Maybe thats the goal here, for the UK/US axis to keep Afghanistan an 18th century economy so it can be plundered and looted. This is exactly what they did to Iraq--turned it into a garbage dump so it could be raped more easily. Probably pakistan could have been made to come aboard and help out with this policy since Pakhtun power is a threat to pakistan in an economic sense as well as a taliban militant sense.


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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 14:00
Originally posted by maqsad

The article on the weapons trade in North Afganistan was relevant though....that turn yours upside down,
 
Hardly, it has nothing to do with the hub that is in Pakistan, again, if u want to think it turns it 'up side down' feel free to feel good about it.  LOL

History will also attest that Taliban and Afghanistan for that matter can be pushed over and turned to rubble most easily by foreign powers.
 
By which foreign power?  Pakistan?  800 soldiers lost just gaurding the border, it was so bad they had to forge a peace deal.  HOW is that easily pushed over?
 
Maybe thats the goal here, for the UK/US axis to keep Afghanistan an 18th century economy so it can be plundered and looted.
 
So the Taliban are still being controlled by the West?
 
Probably pakistan could have been made to come aboard and help out with this policy since Pakhtun power is a threat to pakistan in an economic sense as well as a taliban militant sense.
 
Is the Pakhtun threat so much to Pakistan's existence?  Again, the argument comes back to the Taliban.  When the Taliban had control of most cities in Afghanistan, they still were anti-Pakistan and raised their flags over tribal agencies in Pakistan.  How is this a group that can be controlled?
 

 
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:10
Originally posted by Afghanan

 
By which foreign power?  Pakistan?  800 soldiers lost just gaurding the border, it was so bad they had to forge a peace deal.  HOW is that easily pushed over?


A bunch of rag tag hit and run militants don't hide the fact that ultimate control rests with the paki federal govt. Nobody can concentrate as much deadly force as rapidly in as small an area as the pakis. You have a couple of thousand troops guarding a border where 20 million tribals want to kill them given any chance they get[sneakily of course].  Remember what happened to Bugti? Pakis can target anyone even if they are hiding out in the middle of nowhere and eliminate him if the threat is real and there is no other option.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Maybe thats the goal here, for the UK/US axis to keep Afghanistan an 18th century economy so it can be plundered and looted.
 
So the Taliban are still being controlled by the West?


Afghanistan is controlled by the west. First the soviets plundered natural gas and now the US/UK/Isreal axis is actually ruling Afghanistan with military force. You have to be completely blind not to see that. On the other hand you and others like you probably suffer from Stokholm Syndrome where you actually believe the west is there to "help" your people LOL.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Probably pakistan could have been made to come aboard and help out with this policy since Pakhtun power is a threat to pakistan in an economic sense as well as a taliban militant sense.


Originally posted by Afghanan


Is the Pakhtun threat so much to Pakistan's existence?  Again, the argument comes back to the Taliban.  When the Taliban had control of most cities in Afghanistan, they still were anti-Pakistan and raised their flags over tribal agencies in Pakistan.  How is this a group that can be controlled?


Yes pakhtun nationalism has been a threat to pakistan's existence every since the federation of pakistan was created. In this world it is just pakhtuns and hindus who dream of the destruction and annihilation of pakistan, nobody else.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 17:47
A bunch of rag tag hit and run militants don't hide the fact that ultimate control rests with the paki federal govt. Nobody can concentrate as much deadly force as rapidly in as small an area as the pakis. You have a couple of thousand troops guarding a border where 20 million tribals want to kill them given any chance they get[sneakily of course].  Remember what happened to Bugti? Pakis can target anyone even if they are hiding out in the middle of nowhere and eliminate him if the threat is real and there is no other option.
 
So what option does Pakistan have left? 


Afghanistan is controlled by the west.
 
What about the Taliban?
 
 
First the soviets plundered natural gas and now the US/UK/Isreal axis is actually ruling Afghanistan with military force.
 
Since when did Israel become involved in Afghanistan?

Yes pakhtun nationalism has been a threat to pakistan's existence every since the federation of pakistan was created.
 
So what about the Taliban?  They are all Pro-Pashtun, about 99% Pashtun ethnic makeup too?
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 19:04
Originally posted by Afghanan

A bunch of rag tag hit and run militants don't hide the fact that ultimate control rests with the paki federal govt. Nobody can concentrate as much deadly force as rapidly in as small an area as the pakis. You have a couple of thousand troops guarding a border where 20 million tribals want to kill them given any chance they get[sneakily of course].  Remember what happened to Bugti? Pakis can target anyone even if they are hiding out in the middle of nowhere and eliminate him if the threat is real and there is no other option.
 
So what option does Pakistan have left? 


Pakistan can just maintain the status quo, its only a matter of time before the bad elements of the Taliban that pakistan does not favor are destroyed by NATO. And its not like Pakistan is between a rock and a hard place to begin with.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Afghanistan is controlled by the west.
 
What about the Taliban?



What about them? Their leaders are handpicked ISI products much of the time are they not? So there is some element of control and influence. There may be a CIA connection to some of them too I don't know.

Originally posted by Afghanan


 
 
First the soviets plundered natural gas and now the US/UK/Isreal axis is actually ruling Afghanistan with military force.
 
Since when did Israel become involved in Afghanistan?


Zionists, Israel. Same thing. Involvement is regarding petrochemicals around the Caspian particularly Turkmenistan.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Yes pakhtun nationalism has been a threat to pakistan's existence every since the federation of pakistan was created.
 
So what about the Taliban?  They are all Pro-Pashtun, about 99% Pashtun ethnic makeup too?


Yes but from what I gather they can be controlled by pakis. Like it was during the soviet invasion.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 00:54
Maqsad,
 
I fail to see how maintaining the status quo is going to be in Pakistan's interests.
 
From what I have been observing:
 
1.  Pakistan can not control the Taliban
 
Historically this has backfired and will continue to backfire on them.  When they arrest a few officials, the Taliban and Al Qaeda react back with suicide bombings and other forms of attacks on Pakistan.
 
2.  The Taliban control parts of Pakistan
 
Where they continually assassinate anybody who is against their policies.  They also recruit jihadis to fight in Afghanistan.
 
3.  ISI has their hands in the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.
 
ISI can try to bleed NATO out of Afghanistan, but if NATO leaves, Pakistan will not be on the winning side when the dust is settled.

It is a dream to think Pakistan can control Afghanistan. 
 
--
 
So you do admit finally that Pakistan is interfering in Afghanistan?  Interesting. 
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 02:07
Ok so this makes it more likely that NATO was called in to Afghanistan with the knowledge of ISI then. Or because ISI was failing to supress pakhtun nationalism well enough. 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 08:46
Both maqsad and Afghanan have many things to say with mostly quality posts. On the other hand you both have been in a slugfest lately have dug deep to win your arguements. 
 Since this thread has reached my attention I would suggest that you keep the discussion focused on the topic and not on tangents brought along to piss eachother off.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 10:12
Originally posted by maqsad

Ok so this makes it more likely that NATO was called in to Afghanistan with the knowledge of ISI then. Or because ISI was failing to supress pakhtun nationalism well enough. 
 
To the 1st part of your question, YES.  There was obviously going to be a power vacuum after the Taliban were removed from Kabul.  That is why they brought many respected expatriot elements into the country in hopes of counter-balancing the warlords and their ISI, or Iranian elements.
 
After the war, Ismael Khan, a Pashtun-Tajik warlord in Herat created a bubbled fiefdom in which he grew closer to Iran and would not share all the transit trade money coming from across the border. 
 
At first ISI had to be quelled, and once that happenned, Iranian influence had to be removed.  First, agents from Karzais government (or CIA) had Ismael Khan's son killed, then they hired a Pashtun warlord to threaten Herat, and had him withdraw in the last minute after Ismael Khan was forced out of power.
 
Then lately, India has gotten closer to Kabul via renovating a few hospitals and high schools, providing buses, and engaging in various engineering projects.   Pakistan complained that it is losing out on deals to India.  Then activites in Kashmir started heating up, and Pakistan has made accusations that India is influencing Baluchis in Afghanistan to cause trouble in Baluchistan.
 
Ever since, the ISI has been active again in fueling the Taliban resistance again.  At first the Afghan government was silent about it, not wanting to spark outrage, but when it became deadly obvious they did not hesitate to point fingers across the border. 
 
The spokesperson to the Taliban, Abdul Haq Haqiqi  acknowledged ex ISI chief Hamid Gul as being part of a conspiracy against Karzai's government and that Mullah Omar was in Quetta.  When foriegn news agencies flocked there, they acknowledged the fact that Quetta is a pretty much police zone where foreigners are monitored and Taliban can walk freely.
 
Cheney threatening to cut off aid to Pakistan is a threat Pakistan needs to acknowledge.  Because since Mushy changed colors and supported President Bush, the Pakistani economy has benefited.
 
As for Pakhtun nationalism, this can be resolved diplomatically if both countries are stable and an honest concensus be drawn as to how to secure Pakhtun rights on both sides.  If Pakhtuns feel their rights are not trampelled on both sides of the border, the idea of Pakhtun nationalism can dissappear.
 
IMO, Pakistan needs to stop supporting the Taliban and militants in Kashmir, make peace with India and get on with their life towards progress and stability. 
 
Afghanistan's minorities (especially the Uzbeks and Hazaras) will never allow Afghan government to pursue Pashtunistan issue, that much can be gauranteed. 


Edited by Afghanan - 02-Mar-2007 at 10:18
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 14:59
Originally posted by Afghanan

Originally posted by maqsad

Ok so this makes it more likely that NATO was called in to Afghanistan with the knowledge of ISI then. Or because ISI was failing to supress pakhtun nationalism well enough. 
 
To the 1st part of your question, YES.  There was obviously going to be a power vacuum after the Taliban were removed from Kabul.  That is why they brought many respected expatriot elements into the country in hopes of counter-balancing the warlords and their ISI, or Iranian elements.


That wasnt really a question and the first part I don't think you understood either. I said that because the ISI failed to function as a puppetmaster of the Taliban, NATO was forced to bring troops in to remove the taliban and install UNOCAL puppet karzai and others like him. Dunno about Irani influence in 2001. Was there any? I was under the impression the Taliban were giving them a very hard time and had conquered 90% of Afghanistan.

Originally posted by Afghanan


After the war, Ismael Khan, a Pashtun-Tajik warlord in Herat created a bubbled fiefdom in which he grew closer to Iran and would not share all the transit trade money coming from across the border. 
 
At first ISI had to be quelled, and once that happenned, Iranian influence had to be removed. 


Whats the timeline of events here in relation to the 2001 invasion?

Originally posted by Afghanan


First, agents from Karzais government (or CIA) had Ismael Khan's son killed, then they hired a Pashtun warlord to threaten Herat, and had him withdraw in the last minute after Ismael Khan was forced out of power.


You mean KHAD? Or who? Weren't all of Karzais hits done by the US marines and CIA?

Originally posted by Afghanan


Then lately, India has gotten closer to Kabul via renovating a few hospitals and high schools, providing buses, and engaging in various engineering projects.   Pakistan complained that it is losing out on deals to India. 


Pakistan complained? Where did you hear this do you have any links? Why would pakistan complain of anything other than negative Indian influence such as financing and support of terrorists. I don't get it.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Then activites in Kashmir started heating up, and Pakistan has made accusations that India is influencing Baluchis in Afghanistan to cause trouble in Baluchistan.


Yeah that makes sense.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Ever since, the ISI has been active again in fueling the Taliban resistance again.  At first the Afghan government was silent about it, not wanting to spark outrage, but when it became deadly obvious they did not hesitate to point fingers across the border. 


Active in fueling which taliban? How about some names of leaders here, what their goals are and ideologies and who their targets are.

Originally posted by Afghanan


The spokesperson to the Taliban, Abdul Haq Haqiqi  acknowledged ex ISI chief Hamid Gul as being part of a conspiracy against Karzai's government and that Mullah Omar was in Quetta.  When foriegn news agencies flocked there, they acknowledged the fact that Quetta is a pretty much police zone where foreigners are monitored and Taliban can walk freely.


When was this? And why would this aleged spokesperson suddenly turn on his ISI masters?

Originally posted by Afghanan


Cheney threatening to cut off aid to Pakistan is a threat Pakistan needs to acknowledge.  Because since Mushy changed colors and supported President Bush, the Pakistani economy has benefited.


I dunno if the 1 billion a year american chump change helped the pakistani economy. Even the expatriate army of paki laborors, servants, toilet cleaners etc send back 3 billion plus a year in foreign currency. Also after 911 a huge influx of capital from the paki diaspora boosted the paki economy. Scrooge Bush and his chump change had very little to do with that. And I don't know of any sort of special economic aid that came pakistan's way after 911 either. Much of Cheney's aid goes to purchase overpriced cruddy F16s and other junk which pakistan would be better off manufacturing indigenously no matter what the cost in domestic resources. How much aid was Cheney threatening to cut off? Less than a billion a year? You don't make sense...there had to be some other threat Cheney made or something else the pakis could offer.

Originally posted by Afghanan


As for Pakhtun nationalism, this can be resolved diplomatically if both countries are stable and an honest concensus be drawn as to how to secure Pakhtun rights on both sides.  If Pakhtuns feel their rights are not trampelled on both sides of the border, the idea of Pakhtun nationalism can dissappear.


No I doubt it. Pakhtuns want to dominate both West pakistan and all of Afghanistan. Thats what the more hard core amongst them feel is their "right" so I doubt concensus could be reached. Look at how Karzai talks about the durand line for one..thats a hostile act in of itself. Pretty much a declaration of war.

Originally posted by Afghanan


IMO, Pakistan needs to stop supporting the Taliban and militants in Kashmir, make peace with India and get on with their life towards progress and stability. 


Lol ok, then IMO Afghanistan needs to stop supporting the taliban and militants in NWFP and Balochistan and drop the durand line issues and get on with life...yeah fat chance.

Originally posted by Afghanan


Afghanistan's minorities (especially the Uzbeks and Hazaras) will never allow Afghan government to pursue Pashtunistan issue, that much can be gauranteed. 


And Pakhtuns will never drop the issue. That much can also be guaranteed, no?
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 11:52
Originally posted by maqsad

Dunno about Irani influence in 2001. Was there any? I was under the impression the Taliban were giving them a very hard time and had conquered 90% of Afghanistan.
 
Oh ofcourse there was influence.  Iran was sending their agents in Afghanistan after 9/11 to ensure a Pro-Iranian govt in Kabul and that their proxy groups were well represented - ie. Shiite Hazaras and Ismaelis and Northern Alliance.  They also made deals with Ismael Khan, the ex "King" of Herat to keep him in control of Herat so Iran could more easily influence it. 

Whats the timeline of events here in relation to the 2001 invasion?  You mean KHAD? Or who? Weren't all of Karzais hits done by the US marines and CIA?
 
 
This was 2004 when Ismael Khan was removed from Herat by the Pashtun warlord Amanullah Khan.  Ismael Khan's son, who was Aviation Minister of the time, was killed, and Karzai was pressuring him to leave Herat.  Ironically Amanullah was later assasinated as well and Herat is now under the control of Karzai's government.  This was all Karzais manipulations, probably with help from the CIA and his contacts with Pashtun commanders.

Pakistan complained? Where did you hear this do you have any links? Why would pakistan complain of anything other than negative Indian influence such as financing and support of terrorists. I don't get it.
 
It was on the Afghan news wires for a while actually.  It was something on the lines of Pakistan being 'bullied' by India on reconstruction deals and that Northern Alliance was shunning Pakistan from reconstruction projects and urged Karzai to investigate, which never happenned ofcourse.  There was also an incident when a few Pakistani workers were arrested and sent back to Pakistan looking for jobs in Kabul..


Active in fueling which taliban? How about some names of leaders here, what their goals are and ideologies and who their targets are.
 
Well its interesting you ask because after these constant complaints and threat of removing aid to Musharrafs government, Pakistan recently handed one of the top 3 Taliban commanders on a silver platter to the US -> Mullah Obaidullah.  This sparked Mullah Dadullah to say that their relationship to Pakistan is a shady and elusive one and that they will deal with Pakistan once they take over Afghanistan.  On a similar note, local tribal elders crossed the Durand last recently and pleaded with other Pakhtuns in Afghanistan that the ISI is training and arming militants in Pakistan and that there own tribes have nothing to do with them. 


When was this? And why would this aleged spokesperson suddenly turn on his ISI masters?
 
This was a few weeks ago.  The article is on the 1st or 2nd page of this topic.   And the question is not why did this Talib turn on ISI, but why did the ISI turn on this Talib?  It was because America and Afghan government was complaining that militants are in Pakistan and that Pakistan is not doing enough.  So, conveniently, they gave a low-level Taliban agent, the spokesperson who was making interviews on Geo TV and other Pakistani media stations, over to NATO forces.  The Taliban and the ex-spokesperson also acted angrily and revealed ISI connection to the Taliban.

I dunno if the 1 billion a year american chump change helped the pakistani economy. Even the expatriate army of paki laborors, servants, toilet cleaners etc send back 3 billion plus a year in foreign currency. Also after 911 a huge influx of capital from the paki diaspora boosted the paki economy. Scrooge Bush and his chump change had very little to do with that. And I don't know of any sort of special economic aid that came pakistan's way after 911 either. Much of Cheney's aid goes to purchase overpriced cruddy F16s and other junk which pakistan would be better off manufacturing indigenously no matter what the cost in domestic resources. How much aid was Cheney threatening to cut off? Less than a billion a year? You don't make sense...there had to be some other threat Cheney made or something else the pakis could offer.
 
Maybe threats to bomb them back to the stone age like they did pre- 9/11 had something to do with it?  Pakistans economy has benefited greatly post 9/11, lots of loans writen off, military aid, and some brief economic success.


No I doubt it.  Pakhtuns want to dominate both West pakistan and all of Afghanistan. Thats what the more hard core amongst them feel is their "right" so I doubt concensus could be reached. Look at how Karzai talks about the durand line for one..thats a hostile act in of itself. Pretty much a declaration of war.
 
You over estimate the Pakhtun factor.  Pakhtuns for one , have no leader, have no organization, more than half of them are illiterate and their Khans and Maliks are too corrupt or full of money to care about them.  Ghaffar Khan's plans have yet to meet fruition in Afghanistan or Pakistan.  If Both Afghanistan and Pakistan are stable countries, a whole of of change can occur on both sides of the border that could be mutually beneficial for both parties.


Lol ok, then IMO Afghanistan needs to stop supporting the taliban and militants in NWFP and Balochistan and drop the durand line issues and get on with life...yeah fat chance.
 
So do you think this road of perpetual chaos and threats of destabilization of both Afghanistan and Pakistan (where it is today) is a good policy?


And Pakhtuns will never drop the issue. That much can also be guaranteed, no?
 
I really believe Pakhtuns could drop this issue if there was a better policy setup in both countries to deal with the rampant militarization, talibanization and actual faith in good leaders in both sides.  They need good leaders who respect the rule of law, something that they dont have right now. 
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 12:08

Taliban fire off spring warning

By Syed Saleem Shahzad
Asia Times Online / March 6, 2007

KARACHI - Recent Taliban operations in southwestern Afghanistan's Helmand province and Pakistan's anti-Taliban swoop in its southwestern province of Balochistan mark a broadening of the struggle into Pakistani territory.

The Taliban claim to have overrun the Kabul-installed administration in Nawzad district headquarters in Helmand and all surrounding villages.

This only confirms the belief among North Atlantic Treaty Organization officials that until a broader strategy is devised that

takes in the whole region - including the Pakistani border areas - there can be no level playing field between NATO and the insurgency, and NATO will be the loser.

"The Taliban besieged NATO bases and offices of the Afghan administration [in Nawzad] during [the] whole winter season. We did not attack them because of the difficulties of a winter mobilization of men, and the sustainability of battle remains a problem," Taliban commander Abdul Khaliq Akhund told Asia Times Online by satellite phone from Nawzad district. "Nevertheless, we just curtailed the mobility of the Afghan administration and NATO forces throughout the winter and it was a real blow to their morale.

"As soon as the summer started, we announced the end of the ceasefire with the [Hamid]-Karzai backed administration of Nawzad district and the Taliban and moved into district headquarters. I gladly inform you that the Taliban are now fully in control of Nawzad district headquarters and all villages around it."

A NATO spokesperson in Kabul did not respond to an Asia Times Online request for comment on the Taliban's claim to have taken control of Nawzad.

During a visit to Helmand province last November, this correspondent observed the ceasefire between the Taliban and NATO forces in Nawzad district (see Time out from a siege, Asia Times Online, December 9, 2006). NATO saw the ceasefire as a chance slowly and peacefully to extend the influence of NATO forces as well as the writ of the Afghan government. However, the scheme seems to have come to nothing.

"The fall of Nawzad is the start of the Taliban-led uprising in southwestern Afghanistan, and soon the entire province of Helmand will be in the hands of the mujahideen," Abdul Khaliq claimed.

As events in Nawzad illustrate, the Taliban are unlikely to receive much opposition from Kabul-backed administrations across the province.

To stop the rot, as it were, NATO wants to take the fight into Pakistani territory - from where the Taliban receive logistical support - as its "ceasefire" tactics seem to have failed.

A new focus on Balochistan

Recent clashes between NATO forces and the Taliban in Gramser, Helmand, left dozens of Taliban wounded. Some of them retreated to Naushki, Kuchlak and Quetta in Balochistan, where they were admitted to various hospitals. Their colleagues stayed with the Afghan diaspora in the area.

NATO followed the movement of these people in Pakistan and eventually passed on information to the US Federal Bureau of Investigation's proxies, which have deep influence in the Pakistani police. As a result, under the direct surveillance of the FBI, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence led an operation to capture dozens of Taliban.

A Pakistani newspaper claimed one of the arrested was Mullah Obaidullah, one of Taliban leader Mullah Omar's top aides. Pakistani state authorities denied the claim, including the Ministry of Interior. Nevertheless, sources in the security agencies did say that during a raid in Quetta some "very important persons were sorted out" and that Mullah Obaidullah might indeed be in the area.

These developments reinforce the Afghan government and NATO view that Quetta is an important command and control post for the Taliban and that they have to be rooted out from there. The areas of Naushki and Gardi Jungle in Balochistan have also been identified by the British Task Force in Helmand as the main supply lines of logistics and manpower into Helmand province.

"Local Baloch youths are very active supporters of the Taliban in the region of Naushki and it is the main supply line of weapons and manpower to the Taliban," commented a British military official based in Helmand province, speaking on condition of anonymity.

In return for the heat being turned on them, the Taliban will target the US proxy intelligence network in Balochistan. These include Police Intelligence Unit and FBI collaborators among Muslim clerics and other anti-Taliban elements.

It's all very well, though, for NATO to recognize the necessity of becoming more proactive across the border. There is an obstacle - and a big one. As reported by Asia Times Online (Pakistan makes a deal with the Taliban, March 1), the Pakistani establishment has struck an accord with the Taliban through a leading Taliban commander that will extend Islamabad's influence into southwestern Afghanistan and significantly strengthen the resistance in its push to capture Kabul.

As the Taliban begin the first phases of their spring offensive, the battlefield is getting bigger, as is the number of contestants.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 12:49
 
Beards - and polio - in Taliban country
 
By Ashfaq Yusufzai

PESHAWAR - "Shaving beard isn't done here. Contact only for hair cut," reads a sign pasted outside the entrance of a barber's shop in Upper Dir, a rugged and mountainous district in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province (NWFP) that borders Afghanistan.

All the barber shops in Timergarah, the district headquarters, and Munda have stopped providing shaving services since leaflets advising them that it was Islamic to grow a beard were distributed by an unnamed group last Tuesday.

On March 4, there were explosions inside two saloons, a music shop and four other shops in the adjoining Bajaur Agency, part of the Federally Administered Tribal Agencies along the restive Afghan border. The Taliban have banned music in the tribal areas, and have started fining taxi drivers found listening to music.

According to news reports, a video shop in front of a police station in Bannu, the home town of NWFP Chief Minister Akram Durrani, was attacked by armed men suspected to be Taliban on February 27, who destroyed compact-disc players and CDs of Urdu, English and Indian films.

The district of Tank, on the border with South Waziristan, has slipped into the control of the Taliban. There is a total collapse of civil administration. Police stations remain closed after sundown and Taliban fighters patrol the streets and the bazaars riding on their favorite Datsun pickups.

Most Taliban groups and their al-Qaeda friends crossed over to Pakistan's tribal region after US-led forces toppled their government in Afghanistan in late 2001. Since then, thousands of people, including Taliban fighters and locals, have died in military attacks conducted by either the US or the Pakistan Army.

"The spillover of militancy from tribal areas to settled parts of the NWFP is understandable, because the establishment [Pakistan] is supporting the Taliban and al-Qaeda," asserted Peshawar-based Afrasiab Khattak, a lawyer and human-rights activist who is an expert on Afghanistan.

According to Khattak, missile and air attacks by the US on alleged "terrorist" targets inside Pakistan's tribal areas have worked to the advantage of the Taliban, who have increased their support base in these border regions. There are persistent reports that sympathetic tribesmen are providing shelter and support to Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda fugitives. 

Last September, President General Pervez Musharraf signed a controversial peace deal with the Pakistan-based Taliban groups, which has resulted in a new assertiveness displayed by the Islamic radicals in these Pashtun-dominated, semi-autonomous border areas.

"Both the Pakistan and Afghanistan governments are accusing one another of supporting the Taliban and al-Qaeda, but practically both have failed to stem the tide of militancy," commented Ashraf Ali, a scholar at Peshawar University who is researching the Taliban.

Administrative control in North and South Waziristan and Swat district has slowly slipped into the hands of radicals. A demoralized police force, which has been the target of suicide attacks - most recently in January - is unable to provide protection to businesses banned by the Taliban. Some music-shop owners have moved to Peshawar.

"The Taliban frequently visited our shop and asked us to close down. One day, they delivered an ultimatum: either you close it or we will do it for you," said Hamza Khan, whose family owned a chain of music shops in Tank for 20 years, and has now relocated to Peshawar.

The local Taliban burned TV sets even in Charsadda district, which is adjacent to Peshawar. "The government has lost its writ due to which the Taliban are thriving," observed Ali, who is doing his doctorate.

Even girls' schools in upscale Peshawar are receiving anonymous threats of suicide bombing. Several schools were recently forced to close after the administration received threatening letters. The Taliban are against providing education for girls and letting women work
.

Last month, two government-run girls' schools in Mardan, the second-biggest district in NWFP, were shut down as a precaution after warnings from Taliban groups. Another letter warned that female students must be veiled from head to toe or the schools would be blown up.

Religious extremists in the district of Swat have derailed the government's anti-polio campaign. At the forefront is a charismatic local cleric, Maulana Fazlullah. "Anyone getting crippled by polio or killed by an epidemic is a martyr," he announced at a sermon during Friday prayers.

The cleric, who likes to ride on a horse followed by his supporters in the bazaars, said: "Vaccination of children against polio is a conspiracy by the US to make the coming generation sterile."

In February 2006, in neighboring Darra Adamkhel, religious extremists killed a senior doctor and health workers involved in the polio campaign.

Anti-US sentiments are growing even in Peshawar city, rued researcher Ali. "Some barbers are refusing to shave off beards - a sign of their hatred for the US," he said.

(Inter Press Service)
Provided by Asia Times


Edited by Afghanan - 13-Mar-2007 at 12:49
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 11:10
Originally posted by Afghanan


"The spillover of militancy from tribal areas to settled parts of the NWFP is understandable, because the establishment [Pakistan] is supporting the Taliban and al-Qaeda," asserted Peshawar-based Afrasiab Khattak, a lawyer and human-rights activist who is an expert on Afghanistan.


This does not make sense. Tribal areas have always had the same people living in them but how does this so called support for militant taliban extend to allowing them to move to settled, urbanized and liberal areas of NWFP. Why on earth would the paki govt sign its own death warrant by encouraging such a thing? This never happened before when the ISI was using pakhtoons in proxy wars.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 13:01
It should be deadly obvious at this point.  There are obviously a few different variables in the equation today.
 
What we do know:
 
1.  ISI is supporting and/or protecting the Taliban and  Al Qaeda
2.  The border is uncontrollable
3.  US Pressure on Pakistan is much higher than before
4.  The Pakistani government pressures the ISI to give up a few Taliban lackies to appease the west.
5.  The Pakistani government has allowed (or is unable to stop) NATO from pursuing militants across the border and even dropping bombs into Pakistan.
6.  Musharraf is isolating himself more and more
7.  The Fundamentalists and Jihadis are gaining ground
 
This chaotic picture shows full well that there are different ideologies being pushed around in Pakistan today.  There is probably disunity among Musharraf and his ISI cronies as to how to protect Pakistan interests in the region.  Musharraf wanting to have the militants controlled, and the ISI unable to control them, but able to monitor a few of them.
 
Mullah Dadullah, ISI's biggest benifactor claimed that no other country in the world has given the Taliban as big as a problem as Pakistani government and that they will 'deal' with them.
 
What we're seeing today is perfect example of that.  Taliban and Al Qaeda reaking havoc, dozens of suicide bombings in February and trying more ways than one to destabilize Pakistan in response to Mushy's back stabbing of the Taliban by handing over its spokesperson, bombing a Taliban madrassa, and one of its Commanders. 
 
There are two spheres of influence in Pakistan right now.  Those that want unconditional support for the Talbian, and those trying to stabilize Pakistan and control the damage reaked by them.  Musharraf better think quick because this problem is looking like it is spiraling out of control.  Western think tanks are already thinking of ousting Musharraf in favor of a more resolute general.
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