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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan - Taliban Hub
    Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 05:23
I don't glorify the Pashtuns as 'born in war' 300 Spartan BS (I'm not sure where you got that), but their culture is well suited for warfare because if they are not fighting the government, they are fighting themselves and their own family and cousins...even some of their sports are warlike.

I'm not talking about the Pashtuns. I'm talking about the Taliban. Without a war they will loose support, and with it they will gain it (on both sides of the border)
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 05:14
Originally posted by Panther

He meant the US runs everything in Pakistan. Just like we control everything across the globe.
 
Yeah right.  If American controlled everything across the globe, they sure are doing a really crappy job. 
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 05:04
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The Taliban is an idea, or a political party, not a people. The problem is it is impossible to fight the Taliban with armies. They were born of war, and war will only strengthen them.

Just like Communism, if you wish to fight them it must be done with counter-intelligence and most importantly public opinion. The Taliban is a massive threat to Pakistan; especially the educated classes who would have the most to loose from Taliban influence in Pakistan.
 
Geopolitically the Taliban are a tool of well funded outside interests whose agendas lie elsewhere.  They were used by Al Qaeda, and they are used by ISI.  Without support and intelligence they are not much, and those are coming from Pakistan in their sanctuaries.
 
The born of war stuff is melodramatic and an overstatement.  Taliban impose themselves on Afghans with some bullshit religious mandate that is just cover for running the show.  I hardly think they have majority support in either Afghanistan or in Pakistan.  When it is in Pakistan's interest to rid herself of them, ISI will manage it.
 
It isn't personal, it's just business.
 
 
 
As a well equipped and offensive force, the Taliban need Pakistani military logistics, that is true and I can agree with that.  But that doesn't mean the Taliban can not defend their own territories or mount guerilla warfare or a mountain defensive strategy against Pakistani military or paramilitary forces.  They easily captured nearly 300 Pakistani soldiers without even a shot being fired.  To think the Pakistani army could simply 'walk over them' is very arrogant and could end up a rather bloody mistake.
 
When the Taliban defeated Hezbi Islami forces, they found stockpiles of ammunition from the Cold War that could have lasted a 10 year Civil War.  The Taliban currently are stockpiling weapons and drugs they use to smuggle for money to support their operations.  They get millions from blackmarket businesses alone.  Besides that point, there are many elements within the Pakistani ISI and Pakistani military who are sympathetic to the Taliban and may even aid them.
 
I don't glorify the Pashtuns as 'born in war' 300 Spartan BS (I'm not sure where you got that), but their culture is well suited for warfare because if they are not fighting the government, they are fighting themselves and their own family and cousins...even some of their sports are warlike. 
 
I simply can not agree that Pakistan could defeat the Taliban on their own.  Never underestimate the Pashtuns.  History can attest to that, time and time again.
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 05:03
No, I meant Pakistani governments are usually more concerned with the welfare of their & their families hip pockets than the country. US influence in Pakistan is massively overstated believe it or not, Pakistan is allied for America for mutual gain (it serves the america's, it serves the hip pocket's, and coincidentally it also serves Pakistan)

Geopolitically the Taliban are a tool of well funded outside interests whose agendas lie elsewhere.  They were used by Al Qaeda, and they are used by ISI.  Without support and intelligence they are not much, and those are coming from Pakistan in their sanctuaries.
 
The born of war stuff is melodramatic and an overstatement.  Taliban impose themselves on Afghans with some bullshit religious mandate that is just cover for running the show.  I hardly think they have majority support in either Afghanistan or in Pakistan.  When it is in Pakistan's interest to rid herself of them, ISI will manage it.

Taliban are born of war in the sense that without 20 years of war they would never have emerged in the first place. Uneducated and superstitious, without conflict and poverty they cannot survive.
They don't have majority support, even the Waziris have been at war with America since '97 and are not fighting America in order to support the Taliban.
(I bet no-one in America realises that when America kidnapped Kansi from Waziristan, the Waziris went to war and started targetting Americans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Aimal_Kasi

The Taliban only have support for two reasons (1) They did bring security of a kind when they were in power, (2) they are fighting invaders.
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 04:19
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Besides, since when did the government of Pakistan act in the interests of Pakistan?
 
Geopolitically, the government (meaning the army) acted in the strategic interests of the state.  Don't be surprised when the new government does the same.  Smile
 
 
 
He meant the US runs everything in Pakistan. Just like we control everything across the globe.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:49
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Besides, since when did the government of Pakistan act in the interests of Pakistan?
 
Geopolitically, the government (meaning the army) acted in the strategic interests of the state.  Don't be surprised when the new government does the same.  Smile
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:46
Originally posted by Afghanan

Their interest does not just lie in a destabilization process of Afghanistan, it also lies in self-preservation.   After the Pakistani government tried to take on Al Qaeda and the Taliban last year  (via pressure from the US), they were realizing that they were not capable of controlling or defeating them.  This lead them to get into a peace deal with the militants to attack NATO forces in Afghanistan so long as they dont interfere in Pakistan.

 
I think you are misunderstanding this.  The "peace deal" is a way of redirecting Taliban attention back into Afghanistan and discouraging outside powers.  It is all part of the double dealing you mentioned earlier.
 
Pakistan can say "We are trying, but that difficult frontier doesn't allow us to go after those baddies."  Wink  Right.
 
Kabuki dance.  And why do you suppose the Pashtun want to be any different than they are, or have been for many centuries?
 
  


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 03-Jul-2008 at 01:51
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The Taliban is an idea, or a political party, not a people. The problem is it is impossible to fight the Taliban with armies. They were born of war, and war will only strengthen them.

Just like Communism, if you wish to fight them it must be done with counter-intelligence and most importantly public opinion. The Taliban is a massive threat to Pakistan; especially the educated classes who would have the most to loose from Taliban influence in Pakistan.
 
Geopolitically the Taliban are a tool of well funded outside interests whose agendas lie elsewhere.  They were used by Al Qaeda, and they are used by ISI.  Without support and intelligence they are not much, and those are coming from Pakistan in their sanctuaries.
 
The born of war stuff is melodramatic and an overstatement.  Taliban impose themselves on Afghans with some bullshit religious mandate that is just cover for running the show.  I hardly think they have majority support in either Afghanistan or in Pakistan.  When it is in Pakistan's interest to rid herself of them, ISI will manage it.
 
It isn't personal, it's just business.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 03-Jul-2008 at 01:52
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The Taliban is an idea, or a political party, not a people. The problem is it is impossible to fight the Taliban with armies. They were born of war, and war will only strengthen them.

Just like Communism, if you wish to fight them it must be done with counter-intelligence and most importantly public opinion. The Taliban is a massive threat to Pakistan; especially the educated classes who would have the most to loose from Taliban influence in Pakistan.

Pakistan can not stand by and see potentially powerful interests gain and maintain a foothold on her western flank when India presents a very strong perceived security threat to east and south.

Stability in Afghanistan is more important than who is running it for Pakistan.
 
I agree.  This is not a good policy, but a failed policy that will hurt Pakistan in the long run.  Regardless of the educated that is  in Pakistan's eastern and souther cities, the NWFP in general will lose out on development and remain lawless and backwards as drug barons and renegade Mullahs and tribal leaders take more and more control over the poor and destitute people in those regions. 
 
This talk of a strong and hostile Afghanistan to the West can easily be fixed if Pakistan is shown to play a larger role in combating the militants from the East, and allowing NATO and Afghan forces to enter from the West.  If the Taliban are defeated, the Afghans on Pakistani side of the border will not tolerate anymore incursions by the Afghan forces on their land and this will lead to better relations and cooperation between both governments.
 
Stability and employment are the only answers to rampant fundamentalism in the Pashtun frontier.
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:35
Besides, since when did the government of Pakistan act in the interests of Pakistan?
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:30

Their interest does not just lie in a destabilization process of Afghanistan, it also lies in self-preservation.   After the Pakistani government tried to take on Al Qaeda and the Taliban last year  (via pressure from the US), they were realizing that they were not capable of controlling or defeating them.  This lead them to get into a peace deal with the militants to attack NATO forces in Afghanistan so long as they dont interfere in Pakistan.



Edited by Afghanan - 03-Jul-2008 at 01:33
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:27
The Taliban is an idea, or a political party, not a people. The problem is it is impossible to fight the Taliban with armies. They were born of war, and war will only strengthen them.

Just like Communism, if you wish to fight them it must be done with counter-intelligence and most importantly public opinion. The Taliban is a massive threat to Pakistan; especially the educated classes who would have the most to loose from Taliban influence in Pakistan.

Pakistan can not stand by and see potentially powerful interests gain and maintain a foothold on her western flank when India presents a very strong perceived security threat to east and south.

Stability in Afghanistan is more important than who is running it for Pakistan.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 03-Jul-2008 at 01:30
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 01:13

They don't want to "face the Taliban head on" because it is not in their interest to do so.  The Taliban are ultimately not a threat to Pakistan.  If they were they would be run out of the NWFP and fed to NATO firepower without any sanctuary.

I think I explained the double dealing, and the recognition of conflicting interests has to be part of understanding GEO politics.  You very often can't have what you want, so you make the most of situations and do what you can, or what you must.  Pakistan can not stand by and see potentially powerful interests gain and maintain a foothold on her western flank when India presents a very strong perceived security threat to east and south. 
 
The Taliban represent an asymmetrical counter to US power that may or may not remain in Afghanistan, and they have no official ties to Pakistan.  The US may not always remain on good terms with Pakistan.  The US already has military ties to India, and the Indian Ocean is far more important to the US than the Hindu Kush.
 
Geopolitics.
 
   


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 03-Jul-2008 at 01:24
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 00:02

Pikeshot, it is evident you can see Pakistan's interest in their double dealing policy with the Taliban.

But the problem with going to bed with the Taliban (as the Pakistani government has done), the Taliban also knows ISI's dirty secrets and how they operate and run.  Which is why they can strike in the military headquarters of Pakistan, Rawalpindi with ease and back in September, they surrounded and held hostage nearly 300 Pakistani soldiers with ease.
 
This has much to do with Pakistan's strategic policy as their unwillingness and reluctance to face the Taliban head on.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 23:45
The geopolitical issue in this thread, it seems to me, is that Pakistan sees it's interests served by Afghanistan being 1) no threat to Pakistan, and 2) not a base for strong powers that might have different interests and agendas from those of Pakistan.
 
The Taliban in Afghanistan were no threat to Pakistani interests.  So they harbored Al Qaeda.....so what?  Al Qaeda was not planning to attack Pakistani interests, and (since half of ISI is probably Al Qaeda from old USSR days) if they were, ISI could probably liquidate them at leisure.
 
Taliban presence in NWFP serves Pakistani interests in that it will over time wear down NATO/US patience in Afghanistan, and it provides cover so NATO/US attacks are less likely inside Pakistan.  Taliban are likely to remain as long as it is in Pakistan's interests. 
 
Everyone knows this.  The mystique of ungovernable territories is a good excuse to blow smoke up Uncle Sam's rear end.  It is all a kabuki dance to make it look like what it is not.  That is what clandestine agencies do.
 
   
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 23:36
What issue are you talking about?  Since when does Current and Relevant news get shuffled in a forum to discuss geopolitical 'implications' ?
 
The name of the topic should then be:  Pakistani Meddling in Afghanistan should it not?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 23:32
Originally posted by Afghanan

So why have you not moved other topics regarding Current Affairs into this topic?  Does not the Iranian-Israeli conflict have 'implications' ?

A Pakistani moderator moving a topic criticizing Pakistan into a forum with less than 25 topics to avert attention towards it..even though other topics that talk about 'geo-political' situations with 'implications' as you say are still present in that discussion...I smell foul play and abuse of power.   I did not 'spam' the forum with anything.  I keep all the articles pertaining the CURRENT issue of Pakistani support to the Taliban in this topic, or other topics created discussing this issue.  I do not create new topics to discuss the same issue.
 
 
 
Suggest you back off the confrontational tone.  The moderators of this subforum are in agreement on this.  If you want to discuss the issue, do it here.
 
 
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 22:18

So why have you not moved other topics regarding Current Affairs into this topic?  Does not the Iranian-Israeli conflict have 'implications' ?

A Pakistani moderator moving a topic criticizing Pakistan into a forum with less than 25 topics to avert attention towards it..even though other topics that talk about 'geo-political' situations with 'implications' as you say are still present in that discussion...I smell foul play and abuse of power.   I did not 'spam' the forum with anything.  I keep all the articles pertaining the CURRENT issue of Pakistani support to the Taliban in this topic, or other topics created discussing this issue.  I do not create new topics to discuss the same issue.
 
 


Edited by Afghanan - 02-Jul-2008 at 22:23
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 20:16

The public can see it this is not a restricted forum. And this article has been going on for more than a year, it is about Pakistani support for the Taliban, and its implications, the geo political institute is made for this. I mod both forums.

Originally posted by Afghanan

Unless you want  new topics posted in Current affairs about the Pakistani Taliban.I'd suggest you move it where it belongs.  Unless ofcourse the real reason is to move it somewhere the public can not see it?

And I would suggest that you save yourself the bother of telling me what to do as a mod. I am supremely disinterested on your or anyone else opinions on that topic. You got a problem, PM another mod or an admin. Also those "new topics" you are threatning to flood the current affairs forum with, they will simply be locked and content moved to this topic and you will get a warning for spamming. So kindly don't bother doing that. Its against the Code of Conduct.

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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 18:55
Its a geopolitical question
 
So is the Israeli Arab tensions but that remains in the Current Affairs section?  The article I recently posted was last week's supposed "Pakistani offensive' against Taliban militants, not a synopsis on the viability of the Durand Line.
 
Unless you want  new topics posted in Current affairs about the Pakistani Taliban, I'd suggest you move it where it belongs.  Unless ofcourse the real reason is to move it somewhere the public can not see it?
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