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Ancient Chinese military tactics

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Chinese military tactics
    Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 06:06
hello, here's a very famous one, some of you probabbly have heard this already.

During the waring age,  Kingdom Yan launched an invasion on Kingdom Qi.
the Yan army was led by the famous general Le Yi, who somehow convinced 3 other kingdoms to take part in the invision, thus, in less than one year, the united army conquered the most part of Qi, with only two major cities left, Ju Cheng and Ji Mo. the 3 other kingdom pulled back their army shortly after they got their share of territories, and left only yan army that was still fighting.the situation in Ji Mo was very bad, the general of the city ws killed during the battle. Tian Dan, who was a relative of the king, became the defender of Ji Mo shortly after, he first spread rumours that Le Yi will become the King of Qi after he conquer Ji Mo, but the king of yan did not take it seriously. Follows the death of the King of Yan, the new King become very suspicious towards Le Yi and eventually replaced him with general Qi Jie .
Le Yi then spread a rumour that by digging the grave of Qi acestry( highest offence) will weaken Qi people within Ji Mo. Qi people was furious when Yan army digged their acestry grave, swore that they will fight until death.

the next day, Tian Dan launched an attack on Yan army, first he selected 1000 bulls, decrated them with colourful cloth and equiped sharp daggers on the horn.At night, Le yi launched a surprise attack on Qi army camp, they first, dip the tail of the bulls into fuels, then started to burn them, the bulls then started to ran wildly toward the Yan camp, and follows 5000 well equiped soidiers. the attack wiped out thousands the Yan soidiers, and within a year, Tian Dan recaptured all the territories lost during the invasion.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 06:31
Here's another one,
Ma Yuan(马援) was a famous general who played very important role in the restablish of Han dynasty.
In a battle against Shu Jineng( whom i believed belongs to a minority race), Shu's soildier were very well trained and equiped with heavy armours( could they be Romans by any chance?), was proven to be very powerful. Ma YUan first oberved a path where Shu's soidiers transport supplies, it ws a narrow and small path. Ge than placed magnets on bothe sides of the path, and ordered his troops to equip leather armours, when Shu's heavy armoured soidiers came, they were attracted by the magnetic field, and Han soidiers who were wearing leather armours, captured thousands of enemy troops and a handful of supplies.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 13:49
magnets ?? they had magnets are you sure?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 15:37
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Ge than placed magnets on bothe sides of the path, and ordered his troops to equip leather armours, when Shu's heavy armoured soidiers came, they were attracted by the magnetic field, and Han soidiers who were wearing leather armours, captured thousands of enemy troops and a handful of supplies.

Thats what you describe as a physical impossiblity.
1) You can't build permanent iron magnets that strong
2) permanent Rare Earth magnets have only been discover recently, are extremely expensive, and too brittle to deploy in such a scale or situation
3) Electro-magnets need high electric current. Which was not available at the time.

It is quite possible that the chinese had permanent iron magnets up to 2500 years ago, but quite fictional that you could use them to pick up a man, or a suit of armour.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 09:21

Well that's what it says on the orginal text.

 permanent Rare Earth magnets have only been discover recently, are extremely expensive, and too brittle to deploy in such a scale or situation
 
it is possible that the magnets was only used to slow down the the enemy instead of picking up a man, if you want, i could provide the original text.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 15:46
Just because the original texts say it, doesn't make it more true.

Rare earth magnets require modern manufactoring techniques (I don't know which ones but I'm willing to bet you couldn't do it 200 years ago), to extract. The only way of doing this now would be to use electromagnets
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 09:11
what you are saying may be true, but you still counldn t prove that the original text is lying, they have no reason to lie.

Edited by Siege Tower - 18-Dec-2006 at 06:58
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 16:55
This should turn out to be a very promising thread. Good intro Siege Tower, I'll contribute something more later. As for now, I've got final exams I'm studying for! Lol.

Take care,
Eric
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 07:14
Here s another one.
 
the famous Ming general Qi Jiguang invented a ume tatic during the battle against Wuo Kou( Japnese pirates).
it is called ume tactic because it is formed by 36 groups with 6 man in each group. each group consist of 2 man who were equiped with shield and daggers, while behind the shield, there are 2 man equiped with long spears, and two crossbow man behind the spears. this was proven to be very efficient during the battle, usually 6 groups forms a command. Qi often use 6 commend as the strike force with light calvery behinf their back.  


Edited by Siege Tower - 18-Dec-2006 at 07:16
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 18:35
How about Zhuge liangs empty fort strategy the fort is open with no defenders in sight the attackers get scared of ambush and retreat so he won with 10 men agaisnt 10,000.
 
Also he dug pits into the ground to kill enemy cavalry.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 23:26
Zhuge liang was very famous and i am sure you know that, but he was strong in diplomat and administration, and he was minor in military, but what you wrote really did happen, but most of the well known story about him are probably fictional, but he was nevertheless a brilliant man.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 21:09
Fun fun. Here's another one.

Battle of Red Cliffs should be considered as one of the greatest victory in Chinese history and, quite frankly, in the world.

Warning. Flood of copied texts from Wikipedia. Type "Battle of the Red Cliffs" in wikipedia for reference... I was too lazy to put it into my own words. Gomen, comrades.

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By 208, the Duke of Wei, Cao Cao, controlled all of the North China Plain. He completed a successful campaign against the Wuhuan in the winter of 207, thus securing his northern frontier. Almost immediately afterward, his army turned south in the autumn of 208, aiming to eliminate his main southern rivals swiftly. Meanwhile, Liu Biao, Governor of Jing province, died in that year and his successor meekly surrendered.

Liu Bei, then at garrison at Fan (modern Xiangfan), quickly fled south with a large refugee population following him. He was pursued by Cao Cao's elite cavalry, and was surrounded at the Battle of Changban. Liu further fled east to Xiakou, where he liaised with Sun Quan's emissary Lu Su. Liu's main advisor Zhuge Liang was sent down the Yangtze to negotiate a mutual front against Cao Cao with the state of Wu. Zhuge Liang's eloquence and Wu's chief commander, Zhou Yu's support finally persuaded Sun Quan, to agree on the alliance against the northerners. Sun Quan sent Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, and Lu Su to aid Liu Bei against Cao Cao.

Meanwhile Cao Cao had captured the strategic centre and military depot of Jiangling, and harbored his massive fleet there. The combined Sun-Liu force sailed upstream to Red Cliffs, where they encountered Cao Cao's courier force. After a mild skirmish, both sides temporarily ceased activity - with Cao camped northern of the Yangtze River and the allies in the south. Cao Cao boasted a troop of 150,000 men*, this was probably true as there is no evidence to suggest some other figure, he also had a sizeable cavalry and naval division. Zhou Yu had around 30,000 marines whilst the exiled Liu Bei managed around 20,000.

In the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms Cao Cao boasted a much larger force of 1 million men, however his true number (in the novel) was closer to 700,000-800,000 men.


The decisive blow to Cao came shortly afterwards, though the sources vary on whether Liu or Sun struck it. The most detailed account comes from the biography of Zhou Yu, which details how the Sun commander Huang Gai planned an attack on Cao Cao with fire ships, by pretending to surrender to Cao Cao. The source tells of the devastation wrought in the Cao camp by the fires. In any case, a general order of retreat was given to Cao's troops, and it is likely that the northerners destroyed a number of their own ships during the retreat. There are hints that the northerners were at the time already plagued by disease and low morale.

Many other sources indicate that a combination of Cao Cao's underestimation and Liu's deception resulted in the allies' victory in the Battle of Chibi (Red Cliffs). Cao Cao's generals and soldiers were mostly from cavalry and infantry, and almost none had any experience in battles on the water. Immersed in his victory over Wuhuan, Cao Cao simply assumed that superiority in number would eventually defeat the Sun and Liu navy (the ratio of the naval forces on the two sides are estimated as 120,000 to 50,000). He converted his massive infantry and cavalry army into a marine corps and a navy, which was his first tactical mistake. Even with only a few days of drills before the battle, Cao Cao's troops were already decimated by sea-sickness and lack of water experience, as many of his "fresh" crew could not even swim. Tropical diseases to which southerners had long been immune also plagued the soldiers of the north, and were out of control in Cao Cao's camps.

Extremely worried that his troops would be debilitated by the unfamiliar environment, Cao Cao decided to chain his entire fleet together with strong iron chains. Within days, sea-sickness was drastically decreased, as the ships would rock less when chained together. However, this seemingly beneficial act would eventually cause the destruction of the fleet.

At the same time, the commanders calculated that at this time of the year winds would only blow in the direction of northwest (which was called a southeastern wind). Cao Cao's fleet, which was anchored in the northwest relative to Sun and Liu's camps, was then thoroughly exposed to a fire attack. They bet on this South-eastern wind to even out the chances of the Sun and Liu's inferior forces. However, Cao Cao, unfamilar with the southern weather patterns, was unaware, since most of the season it was the northwestern wind that blew.

On the eve of the battle, Cao Cao realized that the southeastern wind disrupted his entire fleet movement, as his fleet could not advance against a wind blowing straight towards it. A general retreat order was issued, but as his fleet was chained tightly to one another, panic broke out and prevented the fleet from retreating effectively. The entire fleet of 2,000 was then trapped in the middle of the Yangtze river with restricted mobility.

In a desperate effort, Cao Cao called for an attack against the allied force. However, the arrows from Cao Cao's fleet could not reach Sun and Liu's fleets, as the Southeastern wind blew the arrows away from their designated targets. Cao Cao's strategies of overwhelming the Sun-Liu navies with boarding parties had failed as soon as the fleet was immobilized. The Wu forces, aided by the wind, launched arrows with fire tips at the hapless warships of Cao Cao. A combination of volleys of "fire arrows" and attacks of the "fire ships" led by Huang Gai eventually destroyed most of Cao Cao's ships. Then Sun Quan's main forces, on the southern side of the river, crossed the river while Liu Bei's forces marched towards Wulin, defeating Cao Cao's forces on the way. Seeing that the situation was hopeless, Cao Cao burnt his remaining ships and retreated towards Jiangling via Huarong.

Due to famine, disease, and skirmishes along the way, many of Cao Cao's remaining forces perished. However, Zhang Liao and Xu Zhu soon came to the rescue and Cao Cao was safely escorted back to Jiangling. Cao Cao then retreated back north, leaving Cao Ren and Xu Huang to guard Jiangling, Man Chong in Dangyang, and Yue Jin in Xiangyang.


By the end of 209, the command Cao Cao had established at Jiangling fell to Zhou Yu. Liu Bei, on the other hand, had gained territory by taking over the four commanderies south of the Yangzi River. He also occupied Cao Cao's Jingzhou, a strategic fortress on the Yangtze River that Wu claimed for itself. Jingzhou's location gave Liu Bei virtually unlimited access to the passage into Shu, important waterways into Wu, and dominion of the southern Yangtze River. Sun Quan was extremely bitter over his claims that Jingzhou belonged to him, and Liu-Sun ties were severed. The battle of Chibi was the only time that Shu and Wu successfully worked together to defeat the strongest of the three kingdoms, Wei. However, this battle left all three forces significantly weakened and so a power vacuum formed within China. While Cao Cao retreated to reform his army and retrain his troops, Liu Bei and Sun Quan continued quarreling for supremacy in the south. This endless fighting eventually led to their demise by giving Wei an easy opportunity to sweep through and conquer southern China many years later.

It is later claimed by some scholars that Zhuge Liang had planned this battle all along, calculating that Sun Quan's forces would be most weakened after the battle of Chibi so that Liu could take the advantage of expanding his territory. Zhuge Liang gave the fortress of Jingzhou to Guan Yu, who maintained and guarded it until his defeat in 219.

Never again would Cao Cao command so large a fleet as he had at Jiangling, nor would similar opportunity to destroy his southern rivals again present itself. Therefore, the Battle of Red Cliffs and the capture of Jingzhou confirmed the separation of Southern China from the northern Yellow River valley heartland. The battle not only formally established the division of China to the Three Kingdoms, but also foreshadowed the north-south hostility of the later centuries.

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Pretty amazing, don't you think?

    

Edited by pekau - 30-Dec-2006 at 21:10
     
   
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 11:15
indeed the greatest battle ever fought on earth.

here's another one.

During mid-waring age(350 B.C), State Wei began to develope a well deciplined army and the size of the kingdom started to grow. In 351 b.c, the King of Wei send general Pang Juan to invade the neighbouring Han state, Han then asked for help form Qi state. General Sun Bin who was the grandson of Sun Tzu and the general of QI, he figured that the casualties would too great even if they win the battle against Wei's well traind army, in order to avoid casualties, he launched an invasion against Wei's heartland, and as he predicted, Wei's homeland was defenceless. Pang Juan retreated his troops soon after he heard the news, but Qi army was long gone when they got back.

The king of Wei was angery at Qi state for they have alway interfere with Wei's affair with other states. In 338 b.c Wei launched a full scale invasion against Qi.

Sun Bin figured that Qi was too weak for a face to face battle against Wei, so he designed a stretegy called 减灶法, by decreasing Zou( the hole on the ground where soidiers set up fire and cook foods or water,usually being shared by 5 man) to make Pang Juan believe that the Qi army were decreasing in numbers thus seduce Wei army into the trap . Pang Junan did belive that Qi's army were decreasing and retreating( Sun Bin also abandoned equipments such as weapons and flags) he abandoned the large army and led a small force of light calveries try to capture Sun Bin. He ended up in a small place called 马陵( Ma Ling) where the road was exemly muddy, calveries were extremely slow in such environent. They soon arrived to a hindrance formed by woods and stone, and there were writings on it but no one could recognise it in the dark. Driven by his curiorsity Pang Junan ordered his troops to make a torch so he could see the writing. He soon realised that it was a trap when he saw the writing where it says "庞涓死于此树之下"( "here shall be the grave of Pang Juan"), he immediately ordered his troops to retreat, but it was too late, millions of arrows shot by the Qi archors killed Pang Junan and his man in a second.

Qi have regained the respect and leadership amoung the states after the battle, and they conquored large territory of Wei, and Sun Bin became well known for his military talent.


Edited by Siege Tower - 04-Jan-2007 at 10:23
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 10:22
Originally posted by pekau


Many other sources indicate that a combination of Cao Cao's underestimation and Liu's deception resulted in the allies' victory in the Battle of Chibi (Red Cliffs). Cao Cao's generals and soldiers were mostly from cavalry and infantry, and almost none had any experience in battles on the water. Immersed in his victory over Wuhuan, Cao Cao simply assumed that superiority in number would eventually defeat the Sun and Liu navy (the ratio of the naval forces on the two sides are estimated as 120,000 to 50,000). He converted his massive infantry and cavalry army into a marine corps and a navy, which was his first tactical mistake. Even with only a few days of drills before the battle, Cao Cao's troops were already decimated by sea-sickness and lack of water experience, as many of his "fresh" crew could not even swim. Tropical diseases to which southerners had long been immune also plagued the soldiers of the north, and were out of control in Cao Cao's camps.




I think this is mistaken, Caocao did have a large well trained naval force after he captured most of province Jingzhou(荆州), the Jing navy was very well known, almost as strong as the Wu navy. Caocao's loss was purely stretegical failure.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 11:17
i ve recently been to China and i went to the famous site of Eight Position diagrams 八阵图  which was built by Zhu Geliang, it turned out to be a very promising trip.

the Eight Position diagrams, which i believe to ve a labyrinth but serves a military purpose, was truly fascinating, some believed that
Eight Position diagrams was a combination of calveries and infantries and the maze was build only for military purpose.


Zhuge Liang installed eight position diagrams, it is a very well known legend. There was believed to be 4 original sites where Zhu Geliang built his famous Eight Position Diagrams   :the First one is in Mianxian of Shaanxi province; the second is in Xingdu of Sichuan province;another two are located in
Fengjie, the first one is located in the east of the city beside the river, were known as the water eight Position diagram; the other one is in Baidicheng were known as drought eight positions. the Fengjie water eight positions Diagram is believed to be the most prestigious of the four.

i am not an expert, so could anyone give me a specific reference from the orginal taxt  on 
Eight Position diagrams?
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:17
Mein Gott, you are right. Nooo, wikipedia is supposed to be divine!!!
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:18
Ah, but it said that many other sources claiming... bluh bluh bluh). So, it's just showing other POV that may be wrong. WOOT, wikipedia is still divine!!!
     
   
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 21:40
it's probably work of some evil person whose intention was to sabotage the work of Wikipedia. Could it be google?ShockedAngry
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 22:13
Originally posted by Siege Tower

it's probably work of some evil person whose intention was to sabotage the work of Wikipedia. Could it be google?

    
The new conspiracy theory is on! Google will take over the world! Crap, I have the only right to dominate the world...
     

Edited by pekau - 06-Jan-2007 at 22:14
     
   
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2007 at 00:21
the evil axis:yahoo, google or probably baidu vs. wiki clans!!!!!!!!! google have already taken its first action against the neutral website youtube, what will be google's next step??????


Edited by Siege Tower - 07-Jan-2007 at 00:26
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