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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History of Drugs
    Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 07:37
Certainly one of the biggest problems with many drugs today is the way they are manufactured. Many drugs are cut with substances that mimic the effect of the real thing, but may be even more poisonous. If the production of all drugs was regulated, this would be eliminated


So youll give people the assumption that the drugs are manufatured, so they cant be poisonous.

In addition, the other big danger with drugs is that people are simply ignorant of their effects on their bodies


Or they just dont care...

If instead of spending all this money on the war on drugs, the governmets would sprend it on proper and extensive education on their effects, we would see quite a few less overdoses


I dissagree completely. These manufactured drugs arent like Alcohol or dope they arent good for you, regardless on how "safe" the drug is.

Even dope is becoming more an more dangerous because its hydroponically grown meaning its alot more stronger, even having THC in your system will get you fired from alot of jobs yet you think they should legalise "manufactured drugs". Would you hire a kid who spends all of his apprentice wages on buying "legalised amphetamines" DRUGS arent little lollies, theyre gonna f**k you up wether they are good quality or sh*t quality.....Just imagine that, ill be going to the local drug mart to buy an supply the 14 year olds with exstacy hahahahahaha.

Yes, many drugs are dangerous. but there are a lot of legal substances out there which could be potentially fatal as well (not the very least of which is alcohol). Most people know better than to drink themselves to death, because its effects are well known: in the same way people should know better than to take enough of a drug to overdose


Well for one many people do drink themselves to death: car accidents.

But its harder to drink yourself to death because your body will make you throw up the alcohol whereas the little pills even taking one can kill you. yet alot of these druggies are popping more than one anyway because they get a longer high (so ive heard) an the safer the drug the more they'll pop..

Have you ever done hard drugs Decebel ?? I havent the hardest thing ive had is Marijuana... yet im aware that making these drugs legal is ridiculous...Sure there were always be drugs but making HARD drugs legal is messed up, it will mess  people up an like i said before these drugs stay in your system so how are these people going to pass drug tests too be able to support themselves ?

As for kids still buying drugs from some guy off the street instead of regulated locations, give them some credit. Take the case of alcohol: it is legal, but some people still make it in their basement. The overwheling majority of people would still rather pay more and buy something from the liquor store rather then going to Billy Bob's shack in the shady part of town and saving some money buying some moonshine


It wouldnt matter anyway. By the time youve researched and made relatively safe drugs there will be a new drug on the streets that gives people their kicks..







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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 07:02

Certainly one of the biggest problems with many drugs today is the way they are manufactured. Many drugs are cut with substances that mimic the effect of the real thing, but may be even more poisonous. If the production of all drugs was regulated, this would be eliminated. In addition, the other big danger with drugs is that people are simply ignorant of their effects on their bodies. If instead of spending all this money on the war on drugs, the governmets would sprend it on proper and extensive education on their effects, we would see quite a few less overdoses. Yes, many drugs are dangerous. but there are a lot of legal substances out there which could be potentially fatal as well (not the very least of which is alcohol). Most people know better than to drink themselves to death, because its effects are well known: in the same way people should know better than to take enough of a drug to overdose.

As for kids still buying drugs from some guy off the street instead of regulated locations, give them some credit. Take the case of alcohol: it is legal, but some people still make it in their basement. The overwheling majority of people would still rather pay more and buy something from the liquor store rather then going to Billy Bob's shack in the shady part of town and saving some money buying some moonshine.

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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 02:36
Originally posted by Decebal

I personally think that all drugs should be legal but regulated. The demand will always be there and the "war on drugs" is a quixotic endeavor which is doomed to fail


Are you serious man Shocked Sure theres nothing wrong with legalising softer drugs ie "marijuana" But legalising Methamphetamines, speed, cocaine Party drugs like Exstacy, fantasy etc etc wouldnt be a good idea..

If governments take over the production and distribution of drugs, they will remove the organized crime networks


Not really. They will just sell it cheaper. A Kilo of Cocaine from columbia is  $600 in America an Britian its $25,000+
If they legalised harder drugs the drug dealers wont be able to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because the drugs are "legal" and your kids will just buy the cheaper dirtier drugs anyway..

http://www.buzzhumor.com/videos/4692/How_Cocaine_Is_Made

How to make coke


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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 00:17
To be honest, all drugs are good as long as they are used for the benefits of people. There is nothing wrong with drugs. It's the people who abuse their body with drugs. Instead of looking for solution in drug's chemcial formula, its cutural effect, and such... we should be looking at mankind's fault.
 
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 08:40

I personally think that all drugs should be legal but regulated. The demand will always be there and the "war on drugs" is a quixotic endeavor which is doomed to fail. I remember reading a little while ago that the US and Colombian army destroyed enough coca fields through spraying one year (I think it was 2004) to equal the world's annual production, but that the price of cocaine for that year was unchanged: which means that the destruction, as impressive as it first appears, was completely ineffective.

If governments take over the production and distribution of drugs, they will remove the organized crime networks. The focus should not be on removing the supply, which will always exist, as long as the demand is there. The focus should be instead in educating the population on the dangers (and advantages) of drugs, to enable them to make an educated choice. Also, a key point is what drives people to drugs in the first place is usually social problems (though not always). Combatting these social problems will decrease the demand for drugs. The current approach is expensive and ineffective and creates a dangerous organized crime netwrok which then can cause other problem.

Another factor to consider is that many drugs (including coca leaves) are an integral part of many traditional cultures. Outlawing them can have catastrophic consequences for these cultures.


Edited by Decebal - 30-Nov-2006 at 08:41
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 08:29
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Why should poor farmers in a poor country care if the only thing that keeps them and their families alive is doing damage elsewhere? I'd say they have far better excuses than for instance weapon fabricators and dealers, who do the same thing but who are seldomly driven by poverty.
 
you can compare this to the case when a thieve feed his/her whole family by stealing, does that make him/her lesser evil? these farmer are fully aware the fact what they were doing was wrong.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 08:17
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Well, I think constantine has I point. I think most Latin Americans do not much care for Europe's and US's drug problems, and I think they are rightabout that. Why should poor farmers in a poor country care if the only thing that keeps them and their families alive is doing damage elsewhere? I'd say they have far better excuses than for instance weapon fabricators and dealers, who do the same thing but who are seldomly driven by poverty...
 
I believe that's a cartoon.
 
Latin Americans don't care much about Europe of North America simply because Europeans and North Americans don't care about Latin America either. The indiference is mutual.
 
Now, poor farmers don't need to cultivate drugs, they need MARKETS.
 
If Europe and North America cared so much about those poor farmers of Latin America they would stop to subsidize theirs farmers and allow free-trade and competition to develop, so those farmers could make some money in legal production.
 
Now, if you can tell me how to stop coca leave planting in Bolivia is another matter. Cocaine production should stop, but coca leaves are an ancient tradition in there that hardly will stop. That would be like to ask Argentineans to stop drinking mate or Germans to replace beer by coke: impossible.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:58
Originally posted by pinguin

The drug manufacturing is produced in a SINGLE country, Colombia, that has less than the 5% of the territory and around 7% of the people of Latin America. The rest doesn't produce cocaine, and has the same politic than Europe, the U.S. or Japan with respect to cocaine.
  
 
Well, that's not quite accurate. Peru and Bolivia are also significant producers of coca, while Ecuador, Venezuela and Brazil are emerging producers. Just do a search on cocaine production in those countries.
Also, on your description of the "evil" trade in opium by Britain: there was very significant moral opposition to the trade at the time. I don't think that the British purposely traded the stuff on purpose because it was addictive, but because they had no other trade goods China wanted. Everyone is out to make a buck...
Since we're on the subject of a moral judgement, I personally think that the line between legitimate and illegal and immoral producers of addictive substances is drawn rather arbitrarily. Colombian drug lords are sometimes considered the epitome of evil, but tobacco and alcohol producers are tolerated.  Being addicted to an illegal mind-altering drug is considered a terrible situation, but being addicted to a prescription mind-altering drug  (like Valium) is somehow not so bad.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:03
Well, I think constantine has I point. I think most Latin Americans do not much care for Europe's and US's drug problems, and I think they are rightabout that. Why should poor farmers in a poor country care if the only thing that keeps them and their families alive is doing damage elsewhere? I'd say they have far better excuses than for instance weapon fabricators and dealers, who do the same thing but who are seldomly driven by poverty.
 
I know that here in the Netherlands, we care little about the foreingers that come here for drugs. Soft-drugs usage of the Dutch is rather limited. Most of the trade lives on tourists and foreingers like Belginas, French and Germans coming here to get it. This is of big concern to their governments, but not to ours, as we do not have a huge soft-drugs problem like they do...


Edited by Aelfgifu - 30-Nov-2006 at 06:05

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 05:25
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Constantine XI


Whilst on the topic, I want to ask about whether a similar state of affairs is/has been ocurring in Latin America towards the USA and Europe. Latin America, having significant political and economic difficulties, has been seen as a main source of illegal drugs. When discussing this perception with my Spanish teacher (from Uruguay), she replied that in Latin America they had a saying: "we make, you take". She explained that drug consumption was not all that high, but that its production and export was. She explained that many Latin Americans are indifferent to whether people in the USA and Europe use Latin American drugs.

 
Ufff!!!!
 
I believe you can't compare the evil traffic of Oppium in China, sponsored by the British crown, with the situation of "Latin America" at all.
 
I get the impression you believe there is a country called Latin America, and its citizens are called Latin Americans LOL. Not at all, Latin America have more than 20 countries (varying according if one includes the very small English-speaking Caribbean countries on it or not). The drug manufacturing is produced in a SINGLE country, Colombia, that has less than the 5% of the territory and around 7% of the people of Latin America. The rest doesn't produce cocaine, and has the same politic than Europe, the U.S. or Japan with respect to cocaine.
 
Moreover, not even Colombia produces cocaine but the organized crime of Colombia, which is a different matter. Colombia has been combating for 40 years its guerrilla and narcoguerrillas, so is a country that has payed a huge price for stopping those criminals. However, the consumption in the North America and Europe is so much, than many times the Colombian criminals have MORE MONEY than the State!!!
 
Now, with respect of the health of North Americans and Europeans, Latin Americans believe those regions are populated by egoist people that started the drug and flower revolution in the first time.
 
A different topic is coca leaf chewing, which is traditional in the upper Andes. But at those doses that come from chewing leaves the only thing a coca leave can do is making the tonge to lost sensibility LOL.  To make cocaine you need lots of tons of leaves and concentrate the drug in a long chemical process, which was unknown in pre-contact Americas, and that were developed by German scientist in the 19th century.
 
In short, the British experience in China has nothing to do with Colombia whatsoever.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

well said pinguin, i couldn t agree more.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 19:28
Originally posted by Constantine XI


Whilst on the topic, I want to ask about whether a similar state of affairs is/has been ocurring in Latin America towards the USA and Europe. Latin America, having significant political and economic difficulties, has been seen as a main source of illegal drugs. When discussing this perception with my Spanish teacher (from Uruguay), she replied that in Latin America they had a saying: "we make, you take". She explained that drug consumption was not all that high, but that its production and export was. She explained that many Latin Americans are indifferent to whether people in the USA and Europe use Latin American drugs.

 
Ufff!!!!
 
I believe you can't compare the evil traffic of Oppium in China, sponsored by the British crown, with the situation of "Latin America" at all.
 
I get the impression you believe there is a country called Latin America, and its citizens are called Latin Americans LOL. Not at all, Latin America have more than 20 countries (varying according if one includes the very small English-speaking Caribbean countries on it or not). The drug manufacturing is produced in a SINGLE country, Colombia, that has less than the 5% of the territory and around 7% of the people of Latin America. The rest doesn't produce cocaine, and has the same politic than Europe, the U.S. or Japan with respect to cocaine.
 
Moreover, not even Colombia produces cocaine but the organized crime of Colombia, which is a different matter. Colombia has been combating for 40 years its guerrilla and narcoguerrillas, so is a country that has payed a huge price for stopping those criminals. However, the consumption in the North America and Europe is so much, than many times the Colombian criminals have MORE MONEY than the State!!!
 
Now, with respect of the health of North Americans and Europeans, Latin Americans believe those regions are populated by egoist people that started the drug and flower revolution in the first time.
 
A different topic is coca leaf chewing, which is traditional in the upper Andes. But at those doses that come from chewing leaves the only thing a coca leave can do is making the tonge to lost sensibility LOL.  To make cocaine you need lots of tons of leaves and concentrate the drug in a long chemical process, which was unknown in pre-contact Americas, and that were developed by German scientist in the 19th century.
 
In short, the British experience in China has nothing to do with Colombia whatsoever.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 29-Nov-2006 at 19:31
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 13:46
BTW cocaine is a product derivated from coca... it only exists since the 1890
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 13:02
not quiet, before Brits, there were many records 樱粟(that's how we can opium today) in many text, they were used as medicine( painkillers) back in the old days,  but there isn t any evidence stes that 樱粟 is actually opium.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 02:26
 Decebal has already provided one example of this: the Opium Wars which allowed Britain to trade competitively with the Chinese.
 
Why didn't China just grow its own opium?
 
Same reason the US doesn't grow its own opium?
[/quote]

From what I understand the Chinese already had their own opium long before the arrival of the Europeans. What mattered was that the British had opium from India, which I recall reading was far more potent than the type locally grown in China. Apparently the Chinese were willing to pay good money for a product they were already familiar with, but far superior to the home grown stuff on offer. Interestingly, the tensions between China and Britain occured at a time when Britain was truly consolidating her hold on India, and most likely the opium crop of the subcontinent.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 01:49
Originally posted by Constantine XI

One thing worth exploring is the role of drugs as a means for an economically disadvantaged country to improve its balance of trade.
 
A lesson Afghanistan appears to be learning.
 
 Decebal has already provided one example of this: the Opium Wars which allowed Britain to trade competitively with the Chinese.
 
Why didn't China just grow its own opium?
 
Same reason the US doesn't grow its own opium?


Edited by gcle2003 - 29-Nov-2006 at 01:52
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:09
One thing worth exploring is the role of drugs as a means for an economically disadvantaged country to improve its balance of trade. Decebal has already provided one example of this: the Opium Wars which allowed Britain to trade competitively with the Chinese.

Whilst on the topic, I want to ask about whether a similar state of affairs is/has been ocurring in Latin America towards the USA and Europe. Latin America, having significant political and economic difficulties, has been seen as a main source of illegal drugs. When discussing this perception with my Spanish teacher (from Uruguay), she replied that in Latin America they had a saying: "we make, you take". She explained that drug consumption was not all that high, but that its production and export was. She explained that many Latin Americans are indifferent to whether people in the USA and Europe use Latin American drugs.

A practical example of how Latin American drug trade is like the British use of Opium comes with Pablo Escobar, the Colombian drug lord. In building his Empire, Escobar delivered to the people of his home town many of the social services and public infrastucture that they would otherwise have gone without. Such people developed a great loyalty towards Escobar. In this instance, the export of drugs ultimately translates into improved income and higher standard of living for those in the home country; without this trade they would otherwise go without these things thanks to difficulties in securing a competitive edge in international trade. Any other thoughts on this idea?
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 19:08
Originally posted by think

What kind of Drugs grow around Palestine ?
Certainly cannabis and poppies (opium). There are some theories that say that hebrew prophets may have used drugs, but of course that is anathema to the church.
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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 18:58
Well, I'd have to say that my two favourite instances involving drugs in history would have to be the Opium Wars and the debate about whether or not the Hashshashins would dope themselves up on Hashish, hence their sometimes psychotic behaviour. Does anyone have more information about this topic? Any further info would be really appreciated Smile

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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 16:26
What kind of Drugs grow around Palestine ?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 13:45
Oh really? I was totally sure that was true.
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