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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Women and Religion
    Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 15:50
Originally posted by malizai_

I dont think there should even be a womens history sub-forum, do we see a men history forum. Is that sexist? Why should their history be discussed seperately?, can you not be a women and from the mddle ages, or a woman and from columbia?. Is history gender specific? Y do women want seperation? See!, men can come up with issues. LOLLOL 
 
That's why I stopped posting much in this sub-forum, because special focus on women contradicts the principals of equality.
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 16:35
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by malizai_

I dont think there should even be a womens history sub-forum, do we see a men history forum. Is that sexist? Why should their history be discussed seperately?, can you not be a women and from the mddle ages, or a woman and from columbia?. Is history gender specific? Y do women want seperation? See!, men can come up with issues. LOLLOL 
 
That's why I stopped posting much in this sub-forum, because special focus on women contradicts the principals of equality.
 
 
 
I think its perfectly fine with a womens forum - I would even stretch to call it a necessity if we aim to recognize and treat men AND women equal for what they have done through history.
Prior to the creation of this forum, hardly any historical woman was mentioned on AE
Its not only insane dictators, testosterone haunted generals and ancient Gods and prophets that ought to be forgotten who created the history of which we all are a product.  
 
This forum is a live proof of that.
 
~ Northman
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 12-Jan-2007 at 17:42
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 17:44
Personally I have as much sympathy for women who whinge about their inequality in religion as I would a black man who joins the Ku Klux Klan and then gets a niggling feeling he might not be getting treated as well as the other members.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 18:38
Originally posted by Morty

Okay, but the fact that women are "weaker" than men in physical strength does not constitute man's "superiority" over woman. I could just as easily say that women (as procreators) are superior to men, because without women, there's no population....but, women never say that! Women just accept their roles as procreators and leave it at that.

Agree 100%. This was my point.
Originally posted by Northman

Are you serious Omar?
This sounds more like a symbolic ritual than a physical punishment.
In any case, I would never try that on my wife - she, or maybe even both of us, would die from laughing too hard if I came charging at her with a teethbrush or toothpick.

Thats what the holy scriptures say.

Omar, I was on the floor laughing so hard when I read this. If my better half ever came at me with a toothbrush or toothpick, I would certainly fight back with plenty of dental floss!!!!! That'll teach him to mess with me! Oh boy, now I've heard everything!

. Its not allowed to be a stab either, it has to be a strike.
Originally posted by Maliai

At the end i dont see women leading a military campaign against men so the only recourse is to convince by argument.

Hazrat Aisha the prophets wife has already led military campaigns, commanding men against men. Actually women have a long history of fighting in the Arab tribes (I mean strictly Arab Arab, not Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqi/Palestinian)
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 19:58
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

 
Originally posted by Maliai

At the end i dont see women leading a military campaign against men so the only recourse is to convince by argument.

Hazrat Aisha the prophets wife has already led military campaigns, commanding men against men. Actually women have a long history of fighting in the Arab tribes (I mean strictly Arab Arab, not Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqi/Palestinian)
 
 
 
 
That wasn't meant to be taken literallyLOL. Aisha didnt raise an army of women and she wasnt commanding, rather inciting.LOL Anyhow Aisha lost that one.LOL
 
Dont worry Northman i am not going to ask for a seperate men forum, and i know i wouldnt get one.Tongue


Edited by malizai_ - 12-Jan-2007 at 19:59
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 20:19
Originally posted by Paul

Personally I have as much sympathy for women who whinge about their inequality in religion as I would a black man who joins the Ku Klux Klan and then gets a niggling feeling he might not be getting treated as well as the other members.
 
Although I like analogy's like this to put things in another perspective, I think your comparison miss the target completely.
If it should have been valid, the black man should have been born into the membership of KKK.
Most women, including the ones in question here, are born into their religion - noone ever asked them to join and they certainly never asked for the ill treatments which were extended to them.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 22:26
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Morty

[quote=Northman]Are you serious Omar?
This sounds more like a symbolic ritual than a physical punishment.
In any case, I would never try that on my wife - she, or maybe even both of us, would die from laughing too hard if I came charging at her with a teethbrush or toothpick.

Thats what the holy scriptures say.
[quote]
 
 
 
That's what the "sunna" says that isn't holy scripture that is a man-made compliation of what the Prophet(pbuh), might or might not have said. 
 
 
 
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 22:58

I think it is time that this issue is taken by its horn and answered academically.(Boy do i hate religious discussions)Pinch

If anyone is interested in a serious discussion can they firstly tell me what they think is the purpose of this ayah. I will only subject myself to a tedious reply by the measure of the response.

Edited by malizai_ - 12-Jan-2007 at 23:57
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 23:18
Originally posted by Northman

Originally posted by Paul

Personally I have as much sympathy for women who whinge about their inequality in religion as I would a black man who joins the Ku Klux Klan and then gets a niggling feeling he might not be getting treated as well as the other members.
 
Although I like analogy's like this to put things in another perspective, I think your comparison miss the target completely.
If it should have been valid, the black man should have been born into the membership of KKK.
Most women, including the ones in question here, are born into their religion - noone ever asked them to join and they certainly never asked for the ill treatments which were extended to them.
 
 
 
Man is a unique creature, he has a brain capable of creative thought and of developing beyond his cultural condition. Even a few women have this ability too. So no excuses for not using it. Being born into a religion environment is no excuse for a women not to abandon it.
 
Reality is I think women who are oppressed by religion quite enjoy it. Society conditioned in them a masochistic streak and they revell in thier bondage. In most cases in repressive religious societies, men and women are highly segregated.  It's  the older genration of of women who break the spirits of the younger women not the men.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 12-Jan-2007 at 23:20
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 06:38
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by malizai_

I dont think there should even be a womens history sub-forum, do we see a men history forum. Is that sexist? Why should their history be discussed seperately?, can you not be a women and from the mddle ages, or a woman and from columbia?. Is history gender specific? Y do women want seperation? See!, men can come up with issues. LOLLOL 
 
That's why I stopped posting much in this sub-forum, because special focus on women contradicts the principals of equality.
 
 
Of course, all of Allempires is a men's history forum. As most of the member seem not able to include women in their normal accounts of history, this forum is necessary...Wink


Edited by Aelfgifu - 13-Jan-2007 at 06:39

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 06:40
Originally posted by Paul

 
Man is a unique creature, he has a brain capable of creative thought and of developing beyond his cultural condition. Even a few women have this ability too. So no excuses for not using it. Being born into a religion environment is no excuse for a women not to abandon it.
 
Reality is I think women who are oppressed by religion quite enjoy it. Society conditioned in them a masochistic streak and they revell in thier bondage. In most cases in repressive religious societies, men and women are highly segregated.  It's  the older genration of of women who break the spirits of the younger women not the men.
 
 
 
Nice attempt at provocation Paul. But I will not bite.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 07:10
Originally posted by Paul

 
Man is a unique creature, he has a brain capable of creative thought and of developing beyond his cultural condition. Even a few women have this ability too. So no excuses for not using it. Being born into a religion environment is no excuse for a women not to abandon it.
 
Reality is I think women who are oppressed by religion quite enjoy it. Society conditioned in them a masochistic streak and they revell in thier bondage. In most cases in repressive religious societies, men and women are highly segregated.  It's  the older genration of of women who break the spirits of the younger women not the men. 
 
You are so right Paul - oppressed and abused women enjoys it. Wink
 
A good example is my own wife.
 
Every morning she greets me with a smile in the kitchen - my breakfast is already prepared and she looks at her master with the most adoring look in her eyes
Yesterday, I couldnt quite understand why she kept turning her right cheek at me until I realized I had forgotten her usual hard slap across her face.
Of course I slapped her - real hard - I want to keep her happy.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 14:20
I wouldn't say women enjoy a subordinate position, but I think Paul has a point when he says that it's often the older generation of women who break the will of the younger generation. Female genetical mutilation in East Africa for example, is most vigourously supported (and performed) by the older women there.


Edited by Mixcoatl - 13-Jan-2007 at 14:21
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 01:22
Reality is I think women who are oppressed by religion quite enjoy it. Society conditioned in them a masochistic streak and they revell in thier bondage. In most cases in repressive religious societies, men and women are highly segregated.  It's  the older genration of of women who break the spirits of the younger women not the men.

Its the older generation of women to enforce segregation on their male children too. Not that segregation is always bad thing of course.
Although what you basically said here is that oppression is in the eye of the beholder.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 09:49
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by malizai_

I dont think there should even be a womens history sub-forum, do we see a men history forum. Is that sexist? Why should their history be discussed seperately?, can you not be a women and from the mddle ages, or a woman and from columbia?. Is history gender specific? Y do women want seperation? See!, men can come up with issues. LOLLOL 
 
That's why I stopped posting much in this sub-forum, because special focus on women contradicts the principals of equality.
 
 
Of course, all of Allempires is a men's history forum. As most of the member seem not able to include women in their normal accounts of history, this forum is necessary...Wink
 
If all the accounts of prominent women's history were written without hinderance and obstacle, do you think they will equal mens?
 
I honestly can't see how men have reduced AE women to the AE kitchen. If anything, i think because of disproportionate women representation in membership, overwhelmingly majority of men have been extraordinarily supportive of women's contribution. One just needs to look at the reception Mila got to welcome her back.


Edited by malizai_ - 14-Jan-2007 at 09:51
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 11:33
Originally posted by Northman

I think its perfectly fine with a womens forum - I would even stretch to call it a necessity if we aim to recognize and treat men AND women equal for what they have done through history. Prior to the creation of this forum, hardly any historical woman was mentioned on AE
Its not only insane dictators, testosterone haunted generals and ancient Gods and prophets that ought to be forgotten who created the history of which we all are a product. This forum is a live proof of that. 
 
Look up equality.
 
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Of course, all of Allempires is a men's history forum. As most of the member seem not able to include women in their normal accounts of history, this forum is necessary...Wink 
 
AE is everybody's.
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 18:04
Originally posted by Hellios

Look up equality.
 
Equal representation - lack of equality was the reason this forum was created in the first place, and there still remains quite a way to go. Wink
 
 


Edited by Northman - 14-Jan-2007 at 18:04
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 19:24
Equal representation isn't the definition of equality & equal representation means everyone gets the same means of representation & under-represented people should achieve equal representation within the framework of general society & not by doing what they're supposed to be against.
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 20:05
Originally posted by Hellios

Equal representation isn't the definition of equality & equal representation means everyone gets the same means of representation & under-represented people should achieve equal representation within the framework of general society & not by doing what they're supposed to be against.
 
 
Totally agree.....    And - when the equal representation doesnt happen, we create a forum for Womens History. 
Fair and square.
 
And in the total of my 60 year old life, I never met a woman opposing a bit of special treatment - in all aspects Wink
 
Dont you think they deserve it? Big%20smile
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 21:16
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

 
Of course, all of Allempires is a men's history forum. As most of the member seem not able to include women in their normal accounts of history, this forum is necessary...Wink
 
 
Ah.... reminds me of the Women's issue of the magazine.
 
and the last paragraph of the editorial.
 
 
 
 
 Louise Labe wrote, if any woman becomes so proficient as to be able to write down her thoughts, let her do so, and not despise the honour but rather flaunt it instead of fine clothes, necklaces, and rings...
 


Edited by Paul - 14-Jan-2007 at 21:18
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