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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Women and Religion
    Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 17:01
To some degree, all major world religions deprecate women (both East and West).   

Christian/Catholic:

In the Catholic religion, women are not allowed in the priesthood, therefore, no woman could ever become POPE (the highest ranking position in the Catholic religion).   In most Christian religions, women are the mainstay and yet are prohibited from holding leadership positions. Even though there is ample evidence of womens leadership in the early church, such leadership became increasingly prohibited as the church became a public institution, as it was not considered proper for women to hold leadership positions in public.   

Judaism:

In the Jewish religion, although there are now some women Rabbis, the morning prayer is a daily deprecation of women, as stated: Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast not made me a woman.   

Islam:

In Islam, according to the words [of Allah in the Koran], Men are superior to women [34:4]. It also states that, A woman is prohibited from holding high office, because doing so requires mingling with men, and being alone with them.   Also, she must bear a heavy burden, which is not suitable for the character of a woman. [8]

IMO, the only way for a woman to deal with a misogynistic institution, is to leave it.   And maybe that is why I am not a member of any religious groups!   

If you were a woman, how would you feel about this? Would you participate in said organizations knowing that women are considered inferior and not permitted to hold office in said organization? If so, why would you want to participate?


    

Edited by morticia - 14-Nov-2006 at 17:02
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 17:34
i dont suppose Buddism have anything to do with it
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 17:43
Well, there seems to be a curious lack of female Buddist monks...

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 18:46
There are quite a few Buddhist nuns though....
 
Formerly nuns were considered 2nd rate and did little more than the monk's housework at the temples, but these days are on a much more even footing.
 
The main problem for women in Buddhism is only monks can earn karma, and women can't become monks. Men earn their karma by becoming a monk at some point in their lives, usually for only a few months. When a man becomes a monk he not only earns karma for himself, but for his mother too. This is the only way women can earm karma. It's of course problematic, if the women only has daughters, or has no children at all. Hence the fact male children are more prized by mother's than daughters.
 
Recently this has changed in modern looking Buddhist countries who are gradually accepting the idea nuns can earn karma too. Also it's becoming accepted there are other methods of earning karma, such as charity work, donations to templesor joining one of an increasing number of Buddhist cults.
 


Edited by Paul - 14-Nov-2006 at 18:49
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 20:31
hello paul, mind telling me what is karma
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 21:12
'Merit' I believe is what they translated it as where I lived. Though more accurate to a local it's more confusing to a westerner. Karma in English is a very general term that includes many concepts in eastern religions so perhaps too general to be accurately descriptive if used in English.
 
dialect, you made 'Bwj' by becoming a monk and
 
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2659/gumgn7.jpg 'gum' if you did good or bad with other people in your life
 
in English it's all karma.


Edited by Paul - 14-Nov-2006 at 21:37
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 14:22
Originally posted by Siege Tower

idont suppose Buddism have anything to do with it

    
Hello Siege Tower and welcome to the women's history forum. Well, as Paul has indicated on this topic, Buddhism is another religion which deprecates women.
    

Edited by morticia - 15-Nov-2006 at 14:29
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 14:26
Originally posted by Paul

...in modern looking Buddhist countries who are gradually accepting the idea nuns can earn karma too. Also it's becoming accepted there are other methods of earning karma, such as charity work, donations to templesor joining one of an increasing number of Buddhist cults.


Finally, some words of encouragement for women!    
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 15:48
Originally posted by morticia

Originally posted by Siege Tower

i dont suppose Buddism have anything to do with it

    
Hello Siege Tower and welcome to the women's history forum. Well, as Paul has indicated on this topic, Buddhism is another religion which deprecates women.
    
it is a pleasure of my.
 
from what i know, the fundamental principle of buddism is that all beings are equal, so don t think buddidm have any thing to do with it because it violates its principle.
as Paul mentioned that traditionally buddist nuns weren t allowed to earn Karmar(the concept is still unclear to me) well since we are talking about the principles rather than facts, i suppose it is just that people have different understanding to the principle of buddism, and plus, there are traditionally more monks than nuns, i guess that's where the discremination came from.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 14:06
Originally posted by Siege Tower

... there are traditionally more monks than nuns, i guess that's where the discremination came from.


But, what's the point of being a nun if they can't even attain as much "karma" as the monks? Why can men attain greater "anything" and the women cannot? The whole point of this topic is that women, in most world religions and even in the modern day, are inferior to men and cannot EVER reach the same capacity as that of a clergyman. Does that mean that "God" loves men more than women?

Edited by morticia - 16-Nov-2006 at 15:20
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 22:53
Should have done this before, but I checked my understanding of the topic with the girl I live with, who is both Chinese and a Buddhist. Bwj is something that can only be earnt by a man while he is a monk and primarily for his mother. It controls reincarnation in the next life. Gum can be earned by giving temples money and controls luck in the near future.
 
Women were unable to earn karma for the next life. The only way to do this was from a son becoming a monk. Nowadays nuns can earn it too. Good fortune for the present can be earnt by anybody, by feeding monks, gifting temples or doing good, but doesn't count towards the next life.
 
Negatives such as killing [anything] is against a Buddhist commandment so bwj not gum. So effect the next life not present fortune. Hence in restaurants when a cook needs to cook seafood alive, they hire a child to drop it in the boiling water. The theory being the child has a lifetime to [if male become a monk] [if female have a son] and work off the poor reincarnation. Similarly most slaughterhouse hire Muslims because Buddhists refuse to work in these places garunteed a poor reincarnation if they do.
 
Ironically Buddhist countries have some of the most inhumanely killed and factory farmed animals of any country. Because the Buddhist commandment says you shouldn't kill animals but says nothing about eating animals killed by other people. Even Buddhist monks, in contrast to popular myth, eat meat this way.  
 
 


Edited by Paul - 16-Nov-2006 at 23:07
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2006 at 00:42
Originally posted by Paul

'Merit' I believe is what they translated it as where I lived.


Where do you live Paul ?

KARMA
is an Indian word. The actual word is not Karma but KARM. English usage tends to add an A to the end of most Indian words.

The literal meaning of the word KARM is action / deeds / work.

The Philosophical meaning of Karm is " the result / thinking / gist of the Act".

Theologically the word Karm is a combination of

KARYA = Work / Action / Act &
MARM = Result / Thought process / Conclusion.

& refers to the MARM (Result / Thought process / Conclusion) of the KARYA ( Work / Action / Act)

The Indian religion places KARM as the most important part of the religion. In Hinduism Gods are not supreme, Karm is. Any person can attain Godly / divine status by virtue of his good Karms (good deeds). Gods remain Gods, only as long as they excel in virtuous Karm.





Edited by Vivek Sharma - 17-Nov-2006 at 02:32
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  Quote Lotus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2006 at 06:20

Well at least things now seem to be changing, and not before time

In 1975 Synod decided there were no theological objections to the ordination of women

1987 first women deacons appointed

In 1994 the first women priests were ordained into the Church of England.

In 2004 the number of women priests ordained outnumbered men.

 

Britain still lacks behind the US, Canada and New Zealand in not yet ordaining women bishops.


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  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 15:15
meh, not ordaining women misogynistic. i guess if you're seeking power, best not to use religion, cuz that road's been abused enough already.

you may have heard of women like Mother Teresa and Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila, or a lil lady named Mary who all wielded influence comparable or more than the most influential of Popes. non-ordination hasn't been an issue hindering women's influence and role in Christianity. but as the above has noted, that door has been opened, so maybe you should join and go for it.

judaism may be misogynistic, not as far as i know, but the one little line must be very powerful. i am impressed with your belief in the power of prayer.

islam - yes, it's like the Amish trade-off of respecting women by putting them on a pedestal, and draped by curtains. yes, not very enlightened.

there have also been cases of wrongdoing against women in the name of these religions much worse than the ones you mentioned. the joys of not living in black and white.

you seem also to ignore the role religion has played in bettering the condition of women the world over. but such is the nature of narrow generalizations. if we could get away from these black & white generalizations, that would truly be something praiseworthy.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 05:22
i still don t think that religion is the origin of gender discrimination, i think that gender discimination is the the reflection of the public opinion at the time. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 08:18
agree with ST
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 23:33
Originally posted by Morty


In Islam, according to the words [of Allah in the Koran], Men are superior to women [34:4]. It also states that, A woman is prohibited from holding high office, because doing so requires mingling with men, and being alone with them.   Also, she must bear a heavy burden, which is not suitable for the character of a woman. [8]

Wrong on both accounts. [34:4] is
"That He may reward those who believe and work deeds of righteousness: for such is Forgiveness and a Sustenance Most Generous."" [34:4]

[8] is not a reference, but I have heard that sort of opinion before. It doesn't have a foundation in religion.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 15:09
Omar, I don't know which book you are reading, but this is what I found:

translations of Qur'an 4:34:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Sorry, maybe I just inadvertently transposed the numbers!    

Edited by morticia - 09-Jan-2007 at 15:11
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 01:28
^noone reads the Rodwell version, it has a lot of errors. I think he was a church rector from London when he wrote it.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 01:57
Tele
 
There are no versions of the Koran only various translations. There is huge difference.
 
Cahaya
 
Do u think that your religion deprecates women?
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