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M. Nachiappan
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Topic: BCE and CE notations Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 03:01 |
The Christian historians used to use A.D (Anno Domini = in the year of our Lord) and B. C = Before Christ. But, slowly, there have been many doubts raised about the historicity of Christ etc.,
So now, the historians have decided to use notations CE = Curent Era and BCE = Before Current Era to denote the years mentioned for the events discussed in historical topics.
Perhaps, they wanted to "secularise" history in that way!
In history, dates are mentioned by "relative dating" methods, rarely in "absolute dating methods". That is why, there has been chronological problems among the ancient cicilizations, when comparing with each other.
Many times, historians, because of their biase, prejudice and idelogy, tried to interpret historical events and attempt to fix dates for such events. Therefore, scientific methodology is required in attempting to fix dates and interpret historical processes.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 05:01 |
BCE and CE as I understand refer to (Before) Christian Era, not Common Era. Personally I prefer Christian Era, because it is the christian calender that we are using.
Since this is a topic that also relates to all history and not just South Asia, it is also moved to General History.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 06:12 |
Essentially the calendar we are using is a modified Roman one, not a Christian one.
There's more to a calendar than the year you start numbering from. The years themselves start on different days of the year, and have different lengths: therefore if they all started numbering from the same point in time, the actual year numbers would soon diverge.
The English Bill of Rights for instance was passed in 1688 C.E. (Church of England) and 1689 C.E. (Roman Catholic).
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 12:50 |
I don't like the BCE/CE method. It is intended to be less eurocentric, but at the same time it states that the Christian caldendar is the 'common' one, which only makes it more Eurocentric.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 12:53 |
Do dates with AD/BC and BCE/CE markings correspond to one another?
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Ikki
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 12:56 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
I don't like the BCE/CE method. It is intended to be less eurocentric, but at the same time it states that the Christian caldendar is the 'common' one, which only makes it more Eurocentric.
| When we talk about christian era we know about we are talking about, this is specially useful in History, when we have several chronologies (for example, the history of the Islam is always writed in "common"?, common for the muslims, no, in muslim era, detailed different from christian era. One change that i admit is BP, before present (1950), a chronology usually applied to prehistory time because most of the datation are based on C-14.
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Paul
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 16:16 |
I prefer to use the archaeological ya (years ago) so something that happened in 8000bc would be wirtten 10,000ya. It's culture free... (as long as that culture isn't religious).
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Imperator Invictus
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 22:45 |
BCE and CE as I understand refer to (Before) Christian Era, not Common Era. |
No, B.C.E. = Before Common Era, C.E. = Common Era.
Do dates with AD/BC and BCE/CE markings correspond to one another? |
Yep, they are identical.
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 23:56 |
1. Both Common Era" or "Current Era" are one and the same.
2. The BC/AD connote definitely Christian, which was used to show their superiority over others.
3. Here, the question is without knowing, responsible persons side track the issue.
4. That is why, I had to clarify.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 00:39 |
Many Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and other sources prefer the notation's
neutrality, while some Christians have used the term CE to mean Christian Era.
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As a side note, does anyone else hate it when people use 0 CE or 0 AD as a date? I mean come on years are ordinal not cardinal.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 07:16 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
Do dates with AD/BC and BCE/CE markings correspond to one another? |
Depends which calendar you are using. They will vary between the Julian and Gregorian calendars; there's also an astronomical calendar (proleptic) that has a year zero between 1 BCE and 1 CE.
For that matter there's be nothing to stop you taking, say, Khayyam's Perisan calendar, and dating the years from 1 CE. Because of the difference in the allocation of leap years, by now the difference from Julian or Gregorian would be considerable.
Originally posted by Paul
I prefer to use the archaeological ya (years ago) so something that happened in 8000bc would be wirtten 10,000ya. It's culture free... (as long as that culture isn't religious).
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But how would you define the allocation of leap years? Or intercalendary months if you want to go that route? 13,000 ya lunar would only be 12,000 ya solar (approximately).
Personally, as a fan of Khayyam, I wouldn't mind using his calendar and taking 1961 CE as the start year - first man in space. But it would mean re-learning an awful lot of dates.
Edited by gcle2003 - 16-Nov-2006 at 07:25
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gcle2003
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 08:22 |
For the record there's a very useful book by E.J.Bickerman Chronology of the Ancient World. It concentrates on Greece and Rome, but includes the Middle Eastern and Egyptian cultures and has a load of tables including king-lists of pretty well all the major ancient Middle Eastern and European kingdoms and empires.
It also has a lot of material on the various calendars in use in those areas, including the very accurate Egyptian year, based on observation of the star Sirius.
It's listed at Amazon but only from third-party sellers.
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:12 |
YBP notation has been there already.
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Ikki
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:16 |
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan
2. The BC/AD connote definitely Christian, which was used to show their superiority over others.
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Man, is Christian because count (try to count, better) the time since Jesus, if you don't want that chronology don't take it, like the arabs count their years since the Hgira to present day.
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:20 |
I am happy to note that gcle2003 has been "a fan of Omar Khayyam". Incidentally, my friend Mr. K. V. Ramakrishna Rao had an opportunity to visit Iran to attend the 900th Anniversary of Hakim Omar Khayyam and International Colloquim held at Nishapouri from 17-19, 2000, as he was invited by the organizers. He presented a paper, "DEcodng and Deciphering of Rubait of Omar Khayyam": comparing Siddhas and Sufis.
Coming to chronology, you have made an interesting point about Egyptian calendar -
It also has a lot of material on the various calendars in use in those areas, including the very accurate Egyptian year, based on observation of the star Sirius.
Would you please elaborate, as such methodology must have been based on astronomical basis (by the observation of ancient astronomers without telescope and all) and not with C-14, TL etc.
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:26 |
Mr. Ikki, if every religious group does like that (preferably, after becoming domination or otherwise), there would be so many eras and notations.
That is why epigraphists, historians and others have a difficulty, if an inscription records a date "in the regnal year of...." without refering to an era. Even if an era is mentioned, it is not accepted by the "religious minded" scholars and researchers as such era mentioned might be based on scriptures, which are considered religious.
The Kali Era (BKE and KE) in India is an example, though, it is still used by crores of people for day to day activities, as Iranians use "Khayyamic".
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Ikki
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:38 |
If you want a neutral chronology, make a new chronology like the french of the revolution times made, but i think that try to take the BC era, change the name of the era, and negate the nature of that era can be named at least historical rob, with negative consecuences for both europeans and non europeans.
True about that differents eras can be confuse, generally we only use one translating the others to this; but in certain examples as i said before, is better to do like many books about the islamic civilizations that have both, the islamic and the christian time and i see it very useful for the historical investigation.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 02:29 |
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan
Originally posted by gcle2003
It also has a lot of material on the various calendars in use in those areas, including the very accurate Egyptian year, based on observation of the star Sirius.
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Would you please elaborate, as such methodology must have been based on astronomical basis (by the observation of ancient astronomers without telescope and all) and not with C-14, TL etc. |
In clear sky conditions, such as those in Egypt, Sirius is easily visible with the naked eye. In fact it is the brightest star in the sky.
For part of the year of course it is not visible because it is too close to the sun. However it first visibly rises after its hidden period (its 'heliacal rising') just before the summer solstice, and marks accurately - if coincidentally - the beginning of the annual Nile floods.
From the Egyptian point of view this was a much more important event than the spring equinox, which most cultures have seen as the start of the New Year.
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M. Nachiappan
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 01:42 |
So datings made on suuch helical risings, Nile floodings etc., have been used to date Egyptian chronology?
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Jams
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Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 14:09 |
Originally posted by Paul
I prefer to use the archaeological ya (years ago) so something that happened in 8000bc would be wirtten 10,000ya. It's culture free... (as long as that culture isn't religious). |
The problem with that is, that it's not an exact point in time. With distant timeframes, like the example you posted, it may work, but with more exact dates it become problematic.
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