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Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
    Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:01
I think you have been mislead as to the nature of the conflict Sharma. The massive damage done to Lebanon was not done by troops on the ground, it was done by aircraft and artillery, which at no point came under fire from the medium-ranged surface-to-surface missiles possessed by Hezbollah. The IDF did not come under fire over the streets of Beirut, they systematically targetted civilian structures and infrastructure.

In most cases there wasn't Hezbollah presence anywhere near the civilians. Qana being an important example. Here dozens of children were killed by an Israeli bombing run against a building they were later forced to admit did not have a Hezbollah presence. The UN outpost was DELIBERATELY targetted. The massive artillery bombardment and aerial attack occured over the course of hours during which the UN were constantly informing the IDF of their identity and calling for them to cease fire. I would also like to quote the Israeli government's response to a request to build a small bridge into souther Lebanon by the Red Cross: "You build it, we'll bomb it". Israel has alot to answer for.

Hezbollah also had a massive victory in Lebanon. It gained support with the people, up from less than 50% to more than 90%. It had all the issues on its agenda scheduled for UN address, and it dealt a military defeat to Israel. Israel failed to do significant damage to Hezbollah, lost all international respect, was militarily defeated and actually increased Hezbollah's support base. The war definately goes to Hezbollah, with Lebanon coming last despite being the innocent victim of an unnecessary and pointlessly cruel attack.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:30
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Zagros, I don't know which country you are from, but you don't seem to have any experience of military operations.
 
Don't make me laugh.  Your amateurish propaganda regurgitating comments make it clear that you have no sense of objective discernment in what is fact and what is fiction. 
 
And what country I am from bears no relevance to my understanding of affairs military.  Although I, probably unlike 99% of the posters on this site, have unfortunately lived in a city targetted by indiscriminate airstrikes and artillery fire on its non-military infrastructure.
 
When you are fired upon by rockets or missiles, you don't spend time in looking for intelligence or pin point the targets, If you do you will be doomed. You fire in the general direction from which the attack comes. It's a game. If you are lucky you will get the enemy, if you are not, well your luck. The soldiers don't have the time to think, they can only react.
 
There were no rockets fired from inside cities.  Those attacks were acts of attrition against the nation of Lebanon and had nothing to do with Hezbollah.  Why do you think even Christians held rallies holding placards of Hassan Nasrallah?  Because they felt he provided the only defence their country had against the ruthless Israeli aggression. They would have done no such thing before the war.
 
And if the firing is coming from a residential building, you shoot at the building, the open windows, the doors, since you shooting at the walls will serve no purpose.
 
Do you even know how big the rockets Hezbollah were firing are? It seems it is you who needs a little schooling in this area, or even a little common sense would tell you that it is nigh impossible to fire such weapons from tower blocks.
 
Those pictures are from deep within Lebanon, Hezbollah stopped  the IDF DEAD in its tracks at the border, remember?  Those atrocities are the result of airtrikes purported to be against Hezbollah - but not one Hezbollah official died in such bombings.  They were smart, they were hiding in bunkers that no one, not even they (the officials) knew where they were.  As you would know if you could, for half an hour, relinquish your imbecilic arrogance and ignorance, and read the damn articles instead of commenting with your usual, undignified, rhetoric.
 
 
And talking of air attacks try taking a small aircraft up in the sky (if you have access to flying, if not come to India & I will take you up & demonstrate) & shoot down at an imaginary target on the ground (if you have access to or come to India &  I will facilitate your experiment) & mark your accuracy.
 
Sitting in our homes in front of the TV, it is very easy to pass comments on the soldiers, but try thinking from the point of view of the attacked soldier. He soesn't have time to think. He can only react. 
 
And your topic is about the defeat of israel, I am on mark.
 
Oh please, spare me the...


Edited by Zagros - 02-Nov-2006 at 10:58
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 06:54

The air attacks were meant to destroy the economic & support infrastructure. It was pointed out many times that rocket launchers were found in the vicinity of the destroyed sites including qana.

If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win  the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ? Let them attack Israel & do what the egyptians & the rest of the Arab world could not do. Why hide behind skirmishes & then wait for people to shed tears & garner sympathy ?
 
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 07:01
The air attacks were meant to destroy the economic & support infrastructure.
 
You can say same too. You can claim that aim of el kaide was to destroy economic and more power of USA, but still It was an terrorist act.
 
If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win  the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ? Let them attack Israel & do what the egyptians & the rest of the Arab world could not do. Why hide behind skirmishes & then wait for people to shed tears & garner sympathy ?
 
weird words.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 07:57
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The air attacks were meant to destroy the economic & support infrastructure. It was pointed out many times that rocket launchers were found in the vicinity of the destroyed sites including qana.

If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win  the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ? Let them attack Israel & do what the egyptians & the rest of the Arab world could not do. Why hide behind skirmishes & then wait for people to shed tears & garner sympathy ?
 


So your argument, Sharma, is that it is acceptable for Israel to commit terrorist acts... because it's Israel? Also, Israel was later forced to admit that the video evidence of Qana was actually from another site, no-where near residential areas. They had no hard intelligence that Hezbollah was operating from that area.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 09:23

It was pointed out many times that rocket launchers were found in the vicinity of the destroyed sites including qana.

Never were there any found.  Please provide a source for that claim.
 
If hizbolla is so holier than thou, why does'nt it start a war to finish & win  the war. Why does it have to stoop to terrorist activities every now & then ?
 
Again, you display your lack of understanding and knowledge of the IDF, Hezbollah and the history surrounding this conflict - not to mention military doctrine and tactics. I don't know what cognitive process has led you to as such an irrelevant statement.
 
IDF = Regular army, touted as the best there is (or was) by the Israeli
Hezbollah = Shi'ite militia created to push out the Israeli occupying forces from Southern Lebanon.
 
What are Hezbollah's terrorist activities?
 
Kidnappings?   Israel is also very prolific and proficient in this area.
Indiscriminate rocket fire?  Again, Israel actually started this. Hezbollah fired its rockets after the Israelis began their psychopathic attacks on urban centres.
 
You seriously expect a guerilla force to comeout into the open and give up its only advantage?  Their doctrine is defence of Lebanon no attack, that is why they did not mount any offensives, only defensive operations, during which they fought toe to toe with IDF soldiers and their tanks and defeated them.
 
All Israel could do was turn buildings to rubble from afar. 
 
If Hezbollah had the same equipment as Israel and were actually a regular fighting force, then going by this performance, where a brigade of no more than 3000 men held off the full might of ISrael, then there would have been a comprehensive all out defeat of Israel.
 
Reports from Lebanon underscore this point. Much to their surprise, Hezbollah commanders found that Israeli troops were poorly organized and disciplined. The only Israeli unit that performed up to standards was the Golani Brigade, according to Lebanese observers. The IDF was "a motley assortment", one official with a deep knowledge of US slang reported. "But that's what happens when you have spent four decades firing rubber bullets at women and children in the West Bank and Gaza."
 
Excerpt from part two.
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 03-Nov-2006 at 09:24
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 18:15
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by erkut

 
Yea but Hezbollah is in Lebanon(for years). To many people from Leanon supporting Hezbollah, to many Hezbollah members are Lebanon citizens.

 

if Osama Bin Laden would subscribe to this forum, he would say I targeted the civilian targets of September 11th because:

Bush administration is in the USA (for many years). Too many Americans are supporting the republicans, and too many republican members are American citizens.

 

I guess this logic is extremely illogical to Al Qaeda but it is ok to excuse Israel in the light of the same logic! ( I actually think they are using the same logic already since their creation).

    
     I believe you still cannot compare what Al Qaeda has done to New York as to what Israel is trying to do on Lebanon. Osama did not just attack the US because of any administration. OSama attacked because he hates America in general. Period. The more Americans he kills, the more pleasure he gets. Israel is attacking Lebanon because the government is too weak to get the hezbo's out.




But the question is, why should the Lebanese goverment get the hezbo's out in the first place? Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon with elected parliament members and what seems like considerable support among the population. This by some is seen as blatant interference in the internal political process of another, sovereign country.

Exactly for that reason, Israel will never be successful in outsing Hezbollah unless they occupy and annex the entire country of Lebanon. This is beyond their military capabilities and they resolve in ineffective and costly reprisals that also cost them in international oppinion which, with the exception of the US public and Vivek Sharma on this forum, generally sees Israel as the aggressor in these situations. This is a dead-end road for Israel and saps their morale and resources. Incidents like conscientious objectors and desertes will increase under this strategy. The mental and physical general unpreperadness of the Israeli reserves is telling of a society exhausted yet caught in a situation where there is no respite, no rest.
Hezbollah, Iran and all the other Arab countries have inexhaustible resources but lack unity and their militaries are obsolete, antiquated machimes that don't stand a chance in the open field against a Western-type army. Of course the argument is that the IDF, precisely a Western-type army, were stopped by Hezbollah  irregulars making good use of the terrain, who also possesed new-found artillery capabilities. Still, this was not fought in a style of total war where regard for civilians and destruction is low, WW II is a good example. Or perhaps Israel lacks numbers. Regardless, Hezbollah and Lebanon don't stand a  chance against a combined Anglo-American force with a good auxilliary back-up by Canadians, French, Aussies and with the OK to go in and shoot s..t up.


Edited by konstantinius - 03-Nov-2006 at 18:32
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:55
Konstantinus has expressed it right.
 
Another thing is that, are the Hizbolla some miracle men who could accomplish what even the huge armies of entire arab & middle east have not been able to do ? What happened in Sinai & 72 ?
 
The truth is that yes Israel was over confident & not prepared for the sort of weaponry & organised fighting which came from the Hizbolla this time. It had underestimated them & relied on it's past records & intelligence, which failed this time.
 
But then one tactic stalemate does not lead to a victory in a war. Otherwise Stalingrad would not have dragged for so long. The Hizbolla is like the same group of people, who were ousted in Iraq, earlier in trhe ottoman empire, in 1948 & so on.
 
Nowhere in the world, can a militia of 3000, no matter how committed, or well armed, defeat any army. I am not talking of the Israeli army but  NO army in the world.  Will the PKK be able to defeat the turkish army ? Will the kurds be able to beat the Iraq & Iran armies, Will the baloochis be able to beat the pak army. No
 
Israel does not occupy South Lebonan for pleasure, but with a purpose, which is given to it continuously by the hizbolla, Syria, Iran, Previously Saddam & the failure of Lebonan as a state, not to speak of other countries / people.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 08:03
Militias have shamed regular armies in History, i.e. Marathon and Yorktown. But those were free citizen-based and had the right of dissent and association, they were not part of a basically theocratic organization. The point of my previous post is that Israel is not winning this in the long run, regardles of the unconditional US support. No  reason to brag about their performance, in my oppinion. 

Edited by konstantinius - 04-Nov-2006 at 08:08
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:16
Well since 1948 Israel is wining(So i think its long run kostasSmile)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:38
I would like to have seen Israel 'win' without US backing.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:53
Well since 1948 Israel is wining(So i think its long run kostasSmile)
 
60 year is not a long run at history.Also you can win a lot conflict, and loose war.(what happened crusaders.), Infact I dont think israel can survive If they follow their enemity to arabs. Infact They are inside of an arab sea.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 18:13
Originally posted by erkut

Well since 1948 Israel is wining(So i think its long run kostasSmile)


I don't think Israel is "winning". They are tentatively holding on for dear life. The brilliant victories (from a military point of view, not ethnic) of 1948 and 1967 just created buffer zones around the borders. The military capabilities of the surrounding Arab countries were not compromised. Also, as Zaitsev pointed out, without the continuing support of the US I don't think Israel would be able to win anything.


Edited by konstantinius - 05-Nov-2006 at 18:25
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 00:00
Originally posted by Zaitsev

I would like to have seen Israel 'win' without US backing.
 
IFs & Buts, Israel without the US & Hizbolla without the arab / muslim support. Israel still wins hands down.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 02:55
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

IFs & Buts, Israel without the US & Hizbolla without the arab / muslim support. Israel still wins hands down.
 
Not really. For one reason:
Israel + USA backup (the superpower)  VS  Hezbollah + Iran & Syria = Result? (Israel itself admited non of its four objectives are achieved). 
 
Take out the US & Hizbolla's supporters from the equation:
Israel VS Hezbollah = Result? (Same for sure, otherwise illogical conclusion).


Edited by ok ge - 06-Nov-2006 at 02:56
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:02
Israel without the US will still be far too powserfull for the Hizbolla without their supporters, for Israel has all the resources of it's nation at its command, while Hizbolla dont even command the support of their whole nation which itself is much much much weaker than Israel.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:25
how do you judge power vivek? if the isrealis were powerful they way you think, they would of defeated hezbollah in half the time it took for them to lose. anyway why are the negoiting with hezbollah to free the lebanese hostages if they are in complete control?
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 06:05
The problem is they are respecting international laws & trying to be good natured, although it will not serve any purpose with terrorists like Hizbolla & they will have to come bact with their fire power every once in a while. they are just trying to avoid a bloodshed for the Hizbolla
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 07:55
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The problem is they are respecting international laws & trying to be good natured


What? Like blowing up UN observers who radioed in their position three times? Like dropping Cluster Bombs everywhere? Like hitting schools?

If the Israeli government and military wants more sympathy from me they could try stopping all of the above and realise the truth; the way to stop these angry men is to help them. Build Palestine into a decent state, give it aid, create schools, shope, buy from them. Yes there will be losses, yes it will be painful but Israeli politicans need to take a long term view.

Thats not to say that the surrounding states couldnt do more to help. Despite many being invredibly rich they offer little support to Palestine, support anti-Israel organisations and foster terrorism.

One side needs to step forward and do the, painful, right thing.
    
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 23:43
No that will not help. No matter how much help or aid they give, nothing will change, it will only make them stronger. What they are doing now is the best solution for them, only they could be a bit more firm on their stand.
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