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Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
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    Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 13:36
Actually I didn't say anything about the Constitution.  My point was that it would take another terrorist act to push the US into full-scale war and not the police action going on in Iraq right now.  The sort of act of war that the President and Congress reinstate the draft over.
 
I'm talking about every man between the ages of 18 and 35 being called up for one purpose or another such as in WW2.
 
This isn't my theory on how to solve America's problems but rather to say that the US using very little of its potential might so far and in a radicalized future could bring immense and irresistable force to bear.
 
You're obviously upset about the US involvement in other countries but I can assure you I have no feeling about it either way.  I didn't vote for Bush, I don't approve of his decisions and feel no responsiblity for the trouble he causes.
 
The Taliban clearly supported 911 so Afghanistan was invaded.  I don't think the US military really wants to be there but they keep finding terrorists, many foreigners from the middle east, so they stay because they can't allow another cuckoo gov in there.
 
Iraq is Bush's thing.  Sadam tried to assassinate his dad so he went there for a family grudge or some other purpose.  At any rate the US is leaving and that's what the majority of Americans want. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 13:21
In order to defeat your enemy you must accomplish something right?  Otherwise it really isn't a victory.  In summnation, you're post is incorrect since Israel was not defeated, the facts just don't support your conclusion.
The following link, http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0817/p09s02-coop.html, is from the Christian Science Monitor. Excerpts below.
 
"The most useful way to gauge success in today's complex battlefield is probably to look at the initial interests that each party to the conflict had at the outset, and then look at the outcome to see what each party was able to achieve."
 
"Their probable goal in kidnapping two Israeli soldiers in July was to cause Israel to release Lebanese and Palestinian terrorists being held in its prisons, thereby boosting Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah's significance in the region. But because of the subsequent Israeli response, Hizbullah wasn't able to achieve its aim."
 
"Israel has severely battered Hizbullah's military infrastructure, though certainly not put it out of commission. Nevertheless, the organization has lost a significant number of personnel and medium-range rockets. The organization has also lost, assuming that the present UN cease-fire plan is implemented as promised, its forward deployment positions along Israel's border and, indeed, exclusive control over territory south of the Litani River."
 
"Most important, in the coming months, Hizbullah will discover that it has alienated most of the Lebanese population, including large numbers of Lebanese Shiites, because its aggressive actions produced a harsh Israeli response that has brought the destruction of significant areas and infrastructure in Lebanon, as well as a major loss of life. Ultimately, Hizbullah will come out of this conflict considerably weakened."
 
"On balance, despite its somewhat lackadaisical performance, Israel achieved the bulk of its goals while Hizbullah can point to few accomplishments. The degree to which one side is able to achieve long-standing goals should therefore be the ultimate barometer as to the outcome of the Israeli-Hizbullah war. The media may have been seduced by footage of physical destruction, statistics of war dead, declarations of defiance by Nasrallah, as well as spats among the political and military leaders in Israel, but these are not the true measure of victory."
 
Well Zagross, as you can see Hezbollah was clearly defeated since it did not accomplish its goals, while Israel on the other hand came out pretty well.
 
 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 10:55
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Originally posted by Worldhistory


There never will be a victory, in the real sense, because they're one and the same.


The single aim of both sides of this pretend conflict is to create the necessary "feel sorry for us factor" so as to obtain benefits, let them be technological or financial, from gullible Westerners.


Both the Arab Muslims and the Arab Jews want to drive infidel engineered cars, watchinfidel made movies and useinfidel technology such as mobile phones.


It seems Yeho and Allah, didn't go far enough as to prohibit their chosen people from using infidel technology - much sort after by both Arab Muslims and Arab Jews.


The only way they can access infidel technology and lifestyle, let it be through communist donnations or illegal immigration, is to create "feel sorryfor us" factors - such as pretend conflicts.


Just a scam.

Good post. Another thing is that the humane nature of the Israeli & the Western army is often taken as a sign of weakness. They need to get over this.


A good post?

I suppose from your perspective it is, since it is of the same delusional and fantastic callibre as your views.
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Worldhistory

There never will be a victory, in the real sense, because they're one and the same.
 
I know what you mean, but they have huge differences; ideological, religious, cultural, sociological, political, etc.  Don't go solely on genetics, because there's more to a society than that.  Again, I know what you mean.
 
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

The single aim of both sides of this pretend conflict is to create the necessary "feel sorry for us factor" so as to obtain benefits, let them be technological or financial, from gullible Westerners.
 
The conflict is real.
 
Things done by both sides during that conflict actually lower international sympathy for them, i.e. they would have more international support if they didn't do certain things.  In the case of my country, our relations with both Israel and Lebanon would be better if they stopped doing certain things.
 
Economically, both countries' economies have been hindered by the conflict.  Lebanon has never benefited economically from this decades old conflict, and for Israel, peace with its neighbors would only add to its economic strength.
 
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Both the Arab Muslims and the Arab Jews want to drive infidel engineered cars, watch infidel made movies and use infidel technology such as mobile phones.
 
It seems Yeho and Allah, didn't go far enough as to prohibit their chosen people from using infidel technology - much sort after by both Arab Muslims and Arab Jews.
 
The only way they can access infidel technology and lifestyle, let it be through communist donnations or illegal immigration, is to create "feel sorry for us" factors - such as pretend conflicts.
 
Just a scam. 
 
That's funny stuff LOL, (but you might get in trouble for your choice of words, because you ran over a couple of forum rules).
 


Edited by Hellios - 01-Dec-2006 at 01:05
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 21:13
Originally posted by Worldhistory

There never will be a victory, in the real sense, because they're one and the same.
 
The single aim of both sides of this pretend conflict is to create the necessary "feel sorry for us factor" so as to obtain benefits, let them be technological or financial, from gullible Westerners.
 
Both the Arab Muslims and the Arab Jews want to drive infidel engineered cars, watch infidel made movies and use infidel technology such as mobile phones.
 
It seems Yeho and Allah, didn't go far enough as to prohibit their chosen people from using infidel technology - much sort after by both Arab Muslims and Arab Jews.
 
The only way they can access infidel technology and lifestyle, let it be through communist donnations or illegal immigration, is to create "feel sorry for us" factors - such as pretend conflicts.
 
Just a scam.
 


Good post.

Another thing is that the humane nature of the Israeli & the Western army is often taken as a sign of weakness. They need to get over this.
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 20:58
Originally posted by Zagros

What a great man, but unfortunately the intolerance has spread to include polytheists too.

    


Unfortunately not yet.
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 20:54
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

From Haaretz: Cry to those using babies by Naomi Ragen. (via At Level Ground)
"They [Hezbollah] are a lousy army. They only win when they hide behind baby carriages."

Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of the Israeli bomb that killed many civilians in Kafr Qana, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr. Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing rockets amid civilians."

Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to complain about civilian casualties, since all they have is one goal: this entire war is to target civilians. Every single one of the more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched into populated towns filled with women and children. Just today, another explosive belt meant to kill civilians in Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus.

So don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those using babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals and private homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the backyards of kindergartens and schools. Cry to the heartless men who love death, and however many of their troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and children.

I know Haaretz; a very bias news source.  In terms of journalistic fairness, professionalism, credibility, they're not in the same class as AP, Reuters, and some others.  Just look at the tone & wording used.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"They [Hezbollah] are a lousy army. They only win when they hide behind baby carriages."
 
With a comment like that you can be sure the author is not a professional journalist.  Must be a novelist, play writer, or something like that.
 
The statement is also wrong in that Hezbollah are not an "army" - they're a resistance movement; something that will always exist during an illegal occupation - and Hezbollah didn't "win" like the author says - what they did is prevent Israel from winning.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of the Israeli bomb that killed many civilians in Kafr Qana, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at Israel." 
 
The author doesn't mention that in her country the law states that authorities are not allowed to bomb crowds of people even when they feel or know that there are suspects or criminals among them, regardless of the criminal's offence.  This is also international law, because the lives of Lebanese children are just as valuable as Israeli childrens' lives.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Unlike previous administrations, Mr. Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing rockets amid civilians."
 
It doesn't work like that.  A foreign military force has no legal right to order Lebanese people to leave their densely populated residential districts; their homes, possessions, livelihoods, etc, and dropping leaflets does not exonerate a military from war crimes such as leveling entire densely populated residential districts - this is something completely unacceptable under international law, whether you drop leaflets of no legal value or not!
 
If IDF is man enough to face Hezbollah face-to-face, then let them go in on foot, because bombing from the air and long range artillery always causes more civilian casualties, in any war.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to complain about civilian casualties,..."
 
The right to complain about civilian casualties can never be lost.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"...since all they have is one goal: this entire war is to target civilians. Every single one of the more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched into populated towns filled with women and children." 
 
Hezbollah's goals are to rid foreign forces that have been illegally occupying Lebanon for decades, and to get back thousands of political prisoners detained during those decades of illegal occupation.
 
During the most recent episode, rocket fire into Israel begun only after the Israeli invasion commenced.  Up to that point Hezbollah had just captured 2 IDF soldiers, to trade for the prisoners mentioned above, but when Lebanese civilians started dying, Hezbollah felt the need to retaliate, unfortunately.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"So don't cry to me about civilian casualties." 
 
The world will continue to cry about the civilian casualties as long as it continues.  Israel wanted the world to listen to its cries about Jewish civilian casualties throughout history, and most of us have/do, because every civilian casualty deserves it, regardless of race or religion.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Cry to those using babies and wives and mothers;" 
 
Any "babies and wives and mothers" that Israeli forces encountered while invading Lebanon were in or near their residential areas; where they have every right to be, regardless of what threats the Israeli military makes.  Israeli bombs found them - not the reverse.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"cry to those who store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals and private homes."
 
When a country is under occupation and/or being invaded, the defending people will store weapons in such places.  If this author had studied the history of war, she would know that.
 
For example, in WWII churches were used all across Europe by various forces, and just about any other civic structure you can think of.
 
In Vietnam, Americans used medivac helicopters to ferry non-wounded troops and their weapons around, until the Vietnamese started shooting at them.
 
In Canada, homes were used, not just for storing weapons but for fighting posts as well, during invasions by the British and then the Americans.
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the backyards of kindergartens and schools.
 
See last few comments (above).
 
 
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

"Cry to the heartless men who love death, and however many of their troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and children." 
 
They consider themselves victorious because they achieved their goal of preventing IDF from achieving their 2 goals.
 
I don't think they love death more than life, but they're indeed extremely willing to die defending their land.
 
Personally, I'm not a "Hezbollah supporter" but I believe in understanding the true nature of a conflict, and one doesn't have to pick a side in order to do that.  It's the reverse actually; easier to understand the true nature of a conflict as a neutral third party.
 


Edited by Hellios - 30-Nov-2006 at 21:11
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Posts: 80 		  Quote Worldhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:49
There never will be a victory, in the real sense, because they're one and the same.
 
The single aim of both sides of this pretend conflict is to create the necessary "feel sorry for us factor" so as to obtain benefits, let them be technological or financial, from gullible Westerners.
 
Both the Arab Muslims and the Arab Jews want to drive infidel engineered cars, watch infidel made movies and use infidel technology such as mobile phones.
 
It seems Yeho and Allah, didn't go far enough as to prohibit their chosen people from using infidel technology - much sort after by both Arab Muslims and Arab Jews.
 
The only way they can access infidel technology and lifestyle, let it be through communist donnations or illegal immigration, is to create "feel sorry for us" factors - such as pretend conflicts.
 
Just a scam.
 
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:05
Originally posted by Lance Uppercut

Full conscription is the answer to all of America's military problems and it hasn't been used since WW2. An act of terrorism bad enough to bring that back will creat the manpower and the will necessary to beat any foes.
 
Great solution you got their Lance; hope for another "9/11" so that the USA (might) impose involuntary military service.
 
You care little about the American Constitution & the civil liberties, rights, freedoms, it gives Americans, and evidently you're willing to let the "terrorists" make you flush all that down the toilet.
 
Your reason for this; because you believe Americans don't have enough will power or motivation to stand up for what they think is right.  Funny, because this might be the reason why there seems to be a lack of Americans willing to continue serving in illegally occupied territories like Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.
 
You seem to think that all Americans should be motivated to serve in invasions, wars, and occupations that are ruled illegal by the UN, and if they're not; force them to against their will; very good Lance.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:52

From Haaretz: Cry to those using babies by Naomi Ragen. (via At Level Ground)

"They [Hezbollah] are a lousy army. They only win when they hide behind baby carriages."

Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of the Israeli bomb that killed many civilians in Kafr Qana, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr. Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing rockets amid civilians."

Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to complain about civilian casualties, since all they have is one goal: this entire war is to target civilians. Every single one of the more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched into populated towns filled with women and children. Just today, another explosive belt meant to kill civilians in Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus.

So don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those using babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals and private homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the backyards of kindergartens and schools. Cry to the heartless men who love death, and however many of their troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and children.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:27
Full conscription is the answer to all of America's military problems and it hasn't been used since WW2. 
An act of terrorism bad enough to bring that back will creat the manpower and the will necessary to beat any foes.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 03:09
What a great man, but unfortunately the intolerance has spread to include polytheists too.

---

In Iraq, there was no organised resistance, all of the army disbanded (prior to the invasion most of IRaq's top brass had been bribed) and went home save for 10,000 or so republican guard who didn't have much will to fight either... It can be said that at first the deposing of Saddam was welcomed by the Iraqis... It is once they saw that their occupiers were only better than Saddam in name that major resistance started.


    

Edited by Zagros - 30-Nov-2006 at 03:11
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 01:03
He was perfectly right, so is your intention in selecting the material for the above post. Hats off to you.
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 23:56

Dr. S. Radhakrishnan (1888-1975) was one of the most profound philosophers of this century, author and educationalist. Radhakrishnan was also a professor of Eastern Religions at Oxford and later became the second President of free India. He has observed:

The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. 

He went on to remark: 

Wars of Religion which are the outcome of fanaticism that prompts and justifies the extermination of aliens of different creeds are practically unknown in Hindu India. 

(source: The Hindu View of Life - By S. Radhakrishnan  p. 40). For more on Dr. S. Radhakrishnan refer to chapter on Quotes.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 23:28
Hellios, just a bit of correction the iraqi deaths I am talking about are not those of the resistance. their deaths number in thousands only. The one's I am talking about are the ones that occured during the invasion, when no body had the guts to resist the western forces.

The present resistance is entirely Iraqi, even today everybody cries hoarse about the west's actions in Iraq, but nobody has the guts to resist them. So also is be the case with Hizbolla. It is they who resist. Nobody has the guts to support them apart from shelling hollow tears for them.



Secondly the issue of anti terrorist tactics, such tactics can never succeed when any muslims terrorists are fighting against non muslims. I never said that they can succeed, because we see it here everyday.


The moot point was Hizbolla's co called much acclaimed victory over Israel, which the suupporters of Hizbolla call a victory of bravery etc.... while I maintained my point that it was just a small tactical confusion, after which Israel has again repeatedly bombarded Lebonan & killed many people.

It was more of a laid back reaction by Israel resulting from their underestimation or lack of inteligence of the levels of arming & planning of the Hizbolla, rather than any bravery or brilliance on their part.

Had it really been brilliance of the izbolla, why are they keeping quiet after that brilliant display of fighting when the Israleis resumed their offensive ?
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 22:27
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

My post was not against the Hizbolla, It was targetted at those people with no knowledge of counter terrorism who seem to make out that Hizbolla are the braves, deadliest etc....etc.... fighters & they will rout the wester forces.
 
Thinking Hezbollah issue can be solved through so called anti-terrorist tactics might be a mistake.
 
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

What happened in this case was just a tactical miscalculation by Israel, which if it wants it can correct in no time & none of the so called supporters of Hizbolla will have the guts to rise against Israel.
 
The tactical miscalculation you're talking about is that they underestimated Hezbollah's ability to resist them, and yes, that has been corrected already; now, IDF is more aware of Hezbollah's ability to resist.
 
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

It's a bad statement to make & looks even worse to read, but is it not the truth?
 
See above.
 
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

How of many of these sympathizers had the guts to rise against the western combine when the mercilessly butchered more than half a million armed to the teeth professional fightors of Iraq?
 
Iraq?  I believe the Iraqi resistance is quite existent and I hear many top U.S. leaders beginning to say that a military solution will probably not get rid of it either.  I'm afraid you're mistaken in thinking that the "merciless butchery of more than half a million Iraqis" would diminish the Iraqi motivation to resist, when it only increased it.
 
 


Edited by Hellios - 29-Nov-2006 at 22:33
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My post was not against the Hizbolla, It was targetted at those people with no knowledge of counter terrorism  who seem to make out that Hizbolla are the braves, deadliest etc....etc.... fighters & they will rout the wester forces.

What happened in this case was just a tactical miscalculation by Israel, which if it wants it can correct in no time & none of the so called supporters of Hizbolla will have the guts to rise against Israel. It's a bad statement to make & looks even worse to read, but is it not the truth ? How of many of these sympathizers had the guts to rise against the western combine when the mercilessly butchered more than half a million armed to the teeth professional fightors of Iraq ?





 
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 21:21
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

all boils down to one simple conclusion. If the hizbolla was as powerfull a terrorist organization as it is being made out to be that it has defeated, routed, destroyed, humiliated one of the most powerfull military machines of the world, why don't they take it further and achieve all their goals. Surely they are the most deadly fighters, best trained, best motivated, have best strategies, best tactics............What prevents these superhuman heroes from completing their heroic victory?
 
I don't believe Hezbollah think they can do that.  I believe Hezbollah understand that they cannot destroy Israel, instead, they can only fight them in a defensive/guerilla style setting on their own land.
 
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Or is it that they in reality do not want the problem to be solved, lest the solution finishes off the only plausible reason for their existence?
 
It' hard to agree with you that Hezbollah would not want Israel to release the thousands of Lebanese political prisoners that were detained during decades of illegal occupation and still remain illegally held today in Israeli military prisons.  Equally hard to agree that Hezbollah would not want Israel to complete it's withdrawl from all illegally occupied Lebanese land.
 
Now, as for Hezbollah using the conflict to justify their existence, it's a logical assumption also.
 
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 21:02
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Timotheus wrote: It's quite obvious that the Muslims cant drive the Jews out and the Jews can't drive the Muslims out without severe pain on either side. Neither will either leave voluntarily.
 
Worldhistory wrote: Muslims and Jews are one and the same and neither of them originate from that region.
 
Your "Muslims and Jews are one and the same" comment can & should be interpreted positively, and in that sense I agree with you.  It can also be argued however, because it's not entirely accurate.
 
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

It's just a scam to parasite off Europeans and European technology.
 
Wrong.
 
 
Originally posted by Worldhistory

Many Arabs, let them be Jews or Muslims, have been able to migrate to Western nations on the "lets feel sorry for them factor" they constantly create with these fake battles. Tens of thousands of Lebanese Arabs migrated into Australia based on such fake ME battles. It's just a scam.
 
Now, you're going off into the separate issue of how & why some refugees exaggerate claims because they feel it will increase their chances of entry.  Anti-immigrationism is indeed contagious.
 
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:42
 all boils down to one simple conclusion. If the hizbolla was as powerfull a terrorist organization as it is being made out to be that it has defeated, routed, destroyed, humiliated one of the most powerfull military machines of the world, why don't they take it further and achieve all their goals. Surely they are the most deadly fighters , best trained, best motivated, have best strategies, best tactics............

What prevents these superhuman heroes from completing their heroic victory ?

Or is it that they in reality do not want the problem to be solved, lest the solution finishes off the only plausible reason fpor their existence ?
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