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Al Jassas
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Topic: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 14:46 |
Egypt had only 20 000 men almost all of them west of the 34 longitude while Israel had over 200 000 men doing exercises just 10 Km from the borders with Egypt from Dec 66. Israel was under a state of emergency since March of 67 while Egyptian soldiers did not even have ammunition. Only two air strips without planes and no Radar installations whatsoever. Sorry, the only provocation was a couple of stupid speaches by Abdul-Nassir after the humiliation of Yemen for internal consumption that is if speeches of this kind can be considered provocation.
As for the summer war, Israel had every right to retaliate and this was war, if Hizbollah had no power to stop or defeat Israel then why attack in the first place, unless you are strong, don't provoke the beast.
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Kerimoglu
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Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 14:32 |
totally agree. In fact, I do not like when people do not like Israel becouse of their religious reasons.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 00:15 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
In 67, again unprovoked attacked Egypt and refused to return the occupied lands. |
1967 attack unprovoked? Other acts of Israeli aggression aside, the 1967 war was clearly not unprovoked. Egypt masses her Armies deep in the Sinai and directly on the Israeli border, closes off the port of Eliat, pressures a reluctant Jordan to join Egypt and Syria in the upcoming "Final Battle", Egyptian radio proclaims that the "Final Battle" is about to start and that the "The Jews will be cast into the sea". The main issue in 1967 was that the "Final Battle" did not go according to Arab plans. The overwhelming Israeli victory and catastrophic Arab defeat in 7 days needs to be placed in the most embarrassing defeats thread.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 22:01 |
Hello king John
I don't talk naturally about the Arab-Israeli conflict but since you started it then I will continue. Arab states attacked Israel in the 48 war for the simple reason that Jewish terrorist organizations were launching a bloody terroist campaign against both the Brits and the Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians who were living in Jewish majority areas were forced to flee before the war and one of the first acts of the new Israeli state was to put upto 400 000 palestinians under military rule and hddle them into "security zones". From 700 000-1 million fled or were forced to flee leading to the current refugee problem. Israel tried to take all the settlements that were outside the original brderes of the state of Israe as the UN decreed and Arabs helped the helpless Palestinias. After that, Israel, unprovoked, attacked Jordan 4 times killing upto 2000 Jordania civilian from 48-56. In 56, again unprovoked they Attacked Egypt and occupied Sinai but were forced to leave it. In 67, again unprovoked attacked Egypt and refused to return the occupied lands. In 73 Egypt and Syria were already in a state of war with Israel and they regained what is rightfully their own.
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 21:35 |
Well Hezbollah was formed specifically to get rid of the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon which it has not completely achieved.
If you want to know what Hezbollah's actual goals are: well I have heard them on youtube and other media but if I wanted solid concrete evidence of this I guess Hezbollah (official media?) itself may be a good place to start! Just an after thought. I am pretty sure they are not after the 'destruction' of Israel though - diriving anyone into the sea or anything like that.
As for the Yom Kippur war, that was Egypt and Syria trying to get their territories back from the Israeli surprise attacks in 1967. Egypt achieved its goal and reclaimed the Sinai whereas Syria failed because it kept too many forces central in case of any internal insurrection and was subsequently unable to withstand the ISraeli counter attack.
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King John
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 20:52 |
First, I noted the bias of zionism-israel.com. That is why I tried to provide other cites.
I never labeled everybody that has a problem with Israel as an anti-Christ. I realize that some people that have problems with Israel have valid reasons for their issues, heck I have some issues with Israel. Has Israel done some questionable things sure, but Hezbollah has also done questionable things as well. Hezbollah is here due to the actions of both Arabs and Israelis. Israelis were attacked the 1948 with out provocation, again in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. Let's not act like Hezbollah and other Arab groups are innocent here. I understand you have sympathies for Hezbollah that however does not justify blindly believing that Hezbollah is a noble cause. The fact of the matter is that they target civilians this is hardly a noble act.
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 20:17 |
Originally posted by King John
After some searching I have found one instance of Hezbollah's statement of it's aim I will provide the link for you.
http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Hezbollah_Charter.htm
this is not an unbiased site so I will provide at least one more link for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizbullah#Position_on_Israel
I could not find a translation of the Open Letter published in Bierut 1985 that actually stated Hezbollah's goals. So I just provided the two above links |
www.zionism-isreal.com? That is where you are steering off the right track. You can go to al-Quada.com to find out about Western society too then. I understand you have sympathies for Isreal that however does not justify blindly labeling everyone that has a problem with Israel as some anti-Christ. The thing is that Israel has comitted some horrendeous acts from the 40s on and that trend still continues. Hezbollah like them or not are here due to those actions, and their aim was not to destroy Isreal, but to react to their forceful measures with force.
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TranHungDao
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 04:07 |
Thanks. I don't know how I could have missed it. I looked all over for it, in several forums and even used the search function.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 02:28 |
bump The BIG Current affairs thread on the war
Edited by Leonidas - 29-Dec-2007 at 03:21
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Hellios
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 20:35 |
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Leonidas
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 03:09 |
Found this article on one aspect of the conflict the anti tank warfare
Hezbollah anti-amour
Tactics and weaponsAssessment of the Second Lebanon War By Col. David
Eshel
Realizing
the capabilities of the Merkava
4 tank, Hezbollah allocated their most advanced weaponry
to combat this advanced tank, engaging these tanks exclusively
with the heavier, more capable missiles such as 9M133
AT-14 Kornet, 9M131 Metis
M and RPG-29.
RPG-29 and 9M113
Konkurs (AT-5) were employed mostly against Merkava 3 and
2 while non-tandem weapons, such as Tow, Fagot and improved
RPG 7Vs were left to engage
other armored vehicles such as AIFV. The least used were AT-3
Sagger and, to a limited extent, the TOW
as well as non tandem RPGs, were considered obsolete against
tanks, but proved quite lethal against troops seeking cover
in buildings. Overall,
almost 90% of the tanks hit were by tandem warheads. In general,
Hezbollah militants prioritized Merkava Mk 4 over Merkava Mk
2 and 3, and in general, targeted tanks over AIFV. At the beginning
of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, the main Israeli concern
was a report that Hezbollah possessed Russian Kornet antitank
missiles. However, it also saw the RPG-29 Vampir with a tandem
HEAT that had stolen the show. There were even rumors that Hezbollah
had received the notorious TBG-29V thermobaric rounds, but these
could not be confirmed in action.
Hezbollah deployed their tank-killer teams in
a thin but effective defensive scheme, protecting the villages
where the organization's Shiite members reside; villages where
their short range rockets were positioned and where command
infrastructure and logistics support was set up. An estimated
500 to 600 members of their roughly 4,000-strong Hezbollah fighting
strength in South Lebanon were divided into tank-killer teams
of 5 or 6, each armed with 5-8 anti-tank missiles, with further
supplies stored in small fortified well camouflaged bunkers
and fortified basements, built to withstand Israeli air attacks.
Due to mountainous area, engagements were encountered
at ranges below 3000 meters. Hezbollah tank-killer teams would
lay in wait in camouflaged bunkers or houses, having planted
large IEDs on known approach routes. Once an Israeli tank would
detonate one of these, Hezbollah would start lobbing mortar
shells onto the scene to prevent rescue teams rushing forward,
also firing at outflanking Merkava tanks by targeting the more
vulnerable rear zone with RPGs. In general, Hezbollah demonstrated
rather slow regrouping and response rate, since their mobility
and command links were severely restricted by the IDF dominating
the open areas. However, even this slow pace was fast enough
to match the slow and indecisive movements of the Israelis forces.
The night vision equipment used by Hezbollah
was not as advanced as the IDF's. They possess mainly individual
night vision equipment and some night observation systems, but
generally lacked night capabilities for their anti-tank weapons.
Benefiting from its superior night combat capability, the IDF
conducted most movements at night, minimizing exposure of forces
during day time.
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Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 03:29 |
Personally I think it's the Prime Minister who should be resigning after that one.
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 08:37 |
And Israeli chief of military staff just resigned..It is argued that this is closely related with ''failure'' in Lebanon.
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konstantinius
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Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 07:45 |
Certain parts strike me as being extremist on the part of Hezbollah. I higlight them below:
Originally posted by Leonidas
in 1985? things have changed. There are statements i can find in those wiki sources that contradict that hard line. Different audiances require different language, our politicians do it also, as far as i can see they wont accept isreal taking over all of jerusalem which is not acceptable to most arabs anyway.
Nasrallah, Q and A and his ideas for peace (washington post in 2000)
"If Israel pulls out, he promises that Hezbollah will end its "security"
activities there. But he refuses to say whether Hezbollah, whose
history includes bombings and the taking of hostages, will halt all
activities against Israel, its archenemy.......
From the perspective of Hezbollah, what are the major issues
to be addressed during any future Lebanon-Israel peace negotiations?
Lebanon should first recover sovereignty over all its territories,
without neglecting any. Second, all Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails
should be released. . . . Third, Lebanon has the right to ask for
compensation for all the damages and harm which have resulted from
Israeli aggressions against Lebanon during the past decades.
Furthermore, Lebanon has the right to ask for punishment of those
Israeli officials who should be considered war criminals. . . . Israel will never go for this last one. Hezbollah is pushing it too far here.
The next issue, which is no less important than the previous ones . . .
is the issue of the Palestinian refugees. Lebanon cannot enter into any
settlement with anybody based on the granting of Lebanese nationality
to the 300,000 or 400,000 Palestinians who live on Lebanese territory.
There is no way that such a thing can happen. . . . Any settlement that
does not take into consideration the issue of the Palestinian refugees
endangers the process and will prove to be a time bomb which can
explode at any time."
This is debatable too. It ties any solution to the Palestinian question with the situation in Lebanon effectively complicating both. Perhaps the Palestinians can remain in Lebanon untill conditions are better in the West Bank/Gaza. But to seek relocation of 400,000 Palestinians as part of a settlement with Lebanon will not be accepted by Israel.
link sounds unreasonable?
Hersch's converstion with Nasrallah in 2003
"Nasrallah emphasized that he was not seeking a confrontation with
the United States. Because of Hezbollahs ability to disrupt a deal
between the Israelis and Palestinians, I asked Nasrallah about his view
of the renewed talks. He hesitated a moment and declared, At the end,
this is primarily a Palestinian matter. I, like any other person, may
consider what is happening to be right or wrong. . . . I may have a
different assessment, but at the end of the road no one can go to war
on behalf of the Palestinians, even if that one is not in agreement
with what the Palestinians agreed on. Of course, it would bother us
that Jerusalem goes to Israel.
I asked, But if there was a deal?
Let it happen, he answered. I would not say O.K. I would say nothing. " Link CNN transcripts (2003)
"MACVICAR: You know that one of the key questions here in the region
that many want to know the answer to is how will Hezbollah act if there
is a war? Would Hezbollah, for example, attack Israel if there is a
war? NASRALLAH: Our policy is clear, we are fighting in an
area that is still under occupation in Lebanon. And beyond that area,
we are on the defensive. What is being talked about now is the
probability of the Sharon government launching an attack against
Lebanon to eliminate the resistance of Hezbollah by using the American
war against Iraq. But, of course, in this case, we will certainly fight
with all our strength..... But they launched missiles into Israeli cities and kidnapped israeli soldiers prior to israel attacking. These are hostile acts.
MACVICAR: Anderson, that was the key message of Sheikh Nasrallah --
that Hezbollah is now not looking for a fight. He came as close as he
possibly could of saying that they were not interested now in attacking
Israel. Of course, saying that if, in fact, Lebanon was attacked they
would reserve the right to respond. A very different tone, as I said
before, in this interview than in some of the other public statements
that we've heard from Sheikh Nasrallah, which in many ways may have
been meant for domestic consumption in Lebanon -- Anderson." link this is from the leader himself, not a foot soldier or an isreali adaption.
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Edited by konstantinius - 03-Jan-2007 at 21:22
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souljahofgod
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Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 17:32 |
in my opinion, nobody won. both 'sides' suffered heavy losses.
1. Although hezbollah repelled isreali attacks with great ferocity, they probably wouldnt have kept up that morale on the long term basis.
2. isreal could not reach the desired terms it wished to deal to hezbollah, even when they were downgraded, so it turned attention to Lebanon itself had dealt heavy blows on the long and short term.
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Mameluke
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Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 19:28 |
Since this is a military history thread, I wonder why political and moral issues are being discussed here.
One thing we all have to bear in mind - any time a military force sets out on a mission and fails to accomplish that mission - it has to be considered a defeat - technically speaking. If the IDF's mission was to destroy Hezbollah's infrastructure then it certainly has failed in its mission, and therefore this is technically a defeat.
Let's look at a parallel situation - America's involvement in Vietnam was to prevent the South Vietnamese from succumbing to Communism in general and to North Vietnamese aggression in paricular. It did not succeed in its mission and therefore America's experience in Vietnam must be considered a defeat, no matter what the mitigating circumstances.
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Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
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Leonidas
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Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 04:45 |
apologies for the divergences King John, when the war started, most people (media) said that aslong as hezbollah remian intact they would of won. Israel made that very gamble when it launched its massive campaign. Isreal initially announced its aim to wipe them out, it then changed this to weakening them by so much, and then to have them out of the southern border. So far none of these aims (even downgraded) have been realised. Despite their (unknown) casualties a few thousand geurrilla's were still fighting strong and with the same level of discplined command-control they had before the war. That is a victory by any measure especially when (they admit) they were taken by suprise and had to fight one of the most powerful regional players for over a month. To add to this there have been reports of isreal opening up to talks about prisoner exchange, which is what the hezbollah wanted in the first place, BTW your far from offensive.
Edited by Leonidas - 12-Dec-2006 at 04:48
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 14:05 |
Victory from a purely military perspective relative only to this past conflict. All divergences into politics must be avoided.
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King John
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Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 13:56 |
How are we defining "victory" here? Because there is a difference between an immediate victory and a long term victory. Hezbollah can be accused of agression especially in this instance. The major problem with this thread is that it quickly descends into racist rants. These rants will never change anybody's mind and will only lead to more obstinant counter-rants. Neither are good for the course of debate, we should be discussing issues like this with objectivity. Unfortunately, this will not happen. Keep in mind I am not calling anyone in particular a racist just that I am noting that some comments my own included can be seen by some to be biased in certain ways if not a tad bit racist. My appologies again if I have offended anybody, not my intent.
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Travis Congleton
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Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 07:06 |
Originally posted by King John
I'm no expert on Middle Eatern Politics nor am I an expert in Israeli-Lebanese relationships nor on military actions. However, there seems to be an overglossing of certain issues running through this thread.
First pertaining to the referal of the term "Arab" as denoting both Jews and other middle eastern populations. This term is completely wrong! Jews although a semetic people are not "Arab," this does not mean that there are no Arab Jews just that they are few in number. If we want to be truely correct we should refer to the parties involved by there nation of origin ie: Israeli, Lebanese, Palestinian, Jordanian etc. I have no problems with a person being a bigot but if we are going to be bigoted we should know the difference between the focuses of our bigotry (although this is contrary to the idea of bigotry).
The second issue that seems to be running through some of the posts here is that people on both sides like to focus only on "chest thumping" that is my side is right your side is wrong. Although this is the nature of debate this is counter productive. However, some people seem to be missing basic history of this region. For this I suggest reading a wonderfully well written book From Beirut to Jerusalem. Some also seem to miss the point that while the actions of Israel might not have been a proper "proportional response" they were none the less provoked not just by the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers but the murder of at least two more during that same raid. Some people would go so far as to call this an act of war. This was just the culmination of years of animosity between Hezbollah and Israel. This brings me to my final point.
Hezbollah through out the running thread is commonly referred to in terms of endearment. This should not be the case any organization that rejoices at the death of an outsider should not be referred to in such terms. The fact remains that Hezbollah is an organization founded on the destruction of Israel and other westernly alighned governments. I read in one of the posts that they (Hezbollah) were defenders (or something to that nature the exact phrase escapes my mind for which I appologize) of Lebanese soil against foreign occupation. This is simply a less than true statement what was Hezbollah's stance on the recently ended Syrian occupation of Lebanon? They embraced it as a matter of fact they are still part of the pro-Syrian faction of Lebanese politics.
I would like to point out that the verdict is still out on this conflict. Neither side was able to claim an immidiate victory, but the long term effects have yet to be seen, and it is there that the winner will be made apparent.
I would like to appologize for any misspelled words or poorly chosen phrases. If some people feel that I have attacked them that was not my intent and I would like to appologize, I simply wanted to address issues that I encountered. Again I would like to appologize for misspelled words, poorly chosen phrases, and bad grammar. | POST OF THE MONTH
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