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Mongols during the Soviet Union & WW2

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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongols during the Soviet Union & WW2
    Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 02:35
Well, ı heard there were a few mongols in Turkestan Legion of Nazis.
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 03:10

As I know, Mongol state never was the part of SU. It was a sattelite communist state till 1991, but independent.

In WW2 was allies of USSR. They had war with Japan. The most known was the victory of Soviet-Mongolian army over Japan army in Halhin-Gol in 1939. But in WIKI, I found that the population of modern Mongol state is 2.7 mill., but  4 mill. live outside (China,etc.). So it possible they took parts in WW2 in other armies.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 21:19
Soviets used mongols troops as cannon fodder in ww2,using them to charge minefeilds without arms
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:29
Mongols were mainly used a second line troops (to expolit breakthroughs, garrisson, do manual labor). Their war was far from glamorous because being second line they spent most of their war being used as cannon fodder, raping women and living in dire conditions with political officers all round.

Pretty much the average Soviet troopers war.
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  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 16:43
Originally posted by BigL

Soviets used mongols troops as cannon fodder in ww2,using them to charge minefeilds without arms


Some sources?
What do you mean by "Mongols": Mongols-ethnic group,people of mongolian nationality or just from the mongoloid race? If you mean Mongols as ethnic minority in the Russian Far East (Buryats) or Kalmyks, that just isn't true. First despite their symbolic numbers in the USSR army they had 8(Kalmyks, until 1943) and 5(Buryat) heroes of the soviet union.
Here's an example:
Vasily Kharinaevich Khantaev
"The life story of this ethnic Mongolian (Buryat)was a success in more ways than one. Vasily Khantaev was born in August 1924 in the small village of Baitog in the Irkutsk region of eastern Siberia. In his youth, he helped his parents on the farm and attended school. Upon graduation, he became a bookkeeper in a transportation company. At the beginning of the Great Patriotic War ,Khantaev rushed to join the army. He found himself on the frontlines in August 1942 as an artilleryman and fought in the Battle of Kursk. On July 10, 1943, he was wounded and wrote home to his parents: "In the great battle of Kursk, I got a little scratch. Soon, I will get well and return to the front. Very soon we'll drive away the fascist invaders from our land!" After recovers1, he took part in the liberation of cities and villages in Ukraine and Poland. Jr. Sgt. Khantaev arrived on the outskirts of Berlin with the 70th Proskurov Order of the Red Banner Order of Suvorov Mechanized Brigade. A master gunner, he commanded a 76mm antitank team made up of a Buryat,Russian, Uzbek,Belorussian, and an Armenian. The team set to work, opening fire from an open position and destroying two steam locomotives....
   On April 26, 1945, Team Khantaev destroyed 11 enemy machine-gun positions hidden in houses and apartment buildings. During the house-to-house fighting,Khantaev could not use his gun for fear of killing his own troops. Grabbing a submachine gun, he yelled,"Forward! For the Motherland!" and charged toward the enemy stronghold leading his men. He killed nine Germans armed with Panzerfausts (antitank weapons), facilitating the advance of Soviet tanks and infantry. But the day was not over yet. Fierce enemy fire prevented the Soviets from crossing a major square in the city. Khantaev was ordered to destroy the enemy positions. Their first shot destroyed a Panther tank, but the Germans retaliated by showering the gun crew with grenades, killing all but Khantaev. Although wounded in the head, the sergeant carried on alone, and destroyed a tank. When another German tank rounded the corner to attack his position,some Soviet infantrymen ran up and helped him turn his gun around. Facing each other, it was Khantaev who fired first and the third tank was demolished.There was no respite. Two enemy armored cars advanced toward Khantaev while an antiaircraft gun was working feverishly to knock him out.Khantaev loaded and fired while infantrymen brought ammunition. He destroyed the armored cars and antiaircraft gun with his accurate aim, allowing the Soviet tanks to take the square. On May 1, Khantaev moved his gun ahead of the infantry and destroyed an enemy column comprising four armored personnel carriers, nine vehicles loaded with Panzerfausts, and seven motorcycles.During the Battle of Berlin, Khantaev eliminated over three companies of Germans and personally captured 49 men, including the district Volksturm commander.
   Col. Gen. Rybalko, commander of the 3rd Guards Tank Army,recommended that the young Buryat sergeant be awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. On June 27, 1945 Vasily Khantaev became one of only five Buryats to win the Gold Star Medal. After the war, Vasily Khantaev worked as a director of a state farm, and later became chief engineer in charge of supplies in the Ulan Ude office of the USSR Academy of Sciences. He died in 1991."


source: H.Sakaida Osprey Elite 111 : Heroes of the Soviet Union 1941-1945

The members of both Kalmyk and Buryat nationalities were highly respected because of their skills as scouts and snipers.(even in the Wehrmacht) The Kalmyks that served in the Red Army, however were recalled in 1943 from service, not because of their battle performance but due to political reasons(colaboration of the Kalmykian people with the nazis on the occupied territories).

Originally posted by Dampier

Mongols were mainly used a second line troops (to expolit breakthroughs, garrisson, do manual labor). Their war was far from glamorous because being second line they spent most of their war being used as cannon fodder, raping women and living in dire conditions with political officers all round.

Pretty much the average Soviet troopers war.


So there were special detachments of "Mongols" in the Soviet army during WW2, which were usually on garrison duty, doing manual labour, raping women and being used as cannon fodder(on the second line ?!! ) ?
   
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 17:17
Originally posted by Dampier



Pretty much the average Soviet troopers war.
 
Confused
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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:16
The Mongolian People's Republic did not take part in the European theatre at all. Some individuals may have joined soviet forces, but on the whole the MPR watched it's own borders, sent goods (food, clothes, horses) and money. And they somehow financed one or two tank units and one air squadron, that's why there is a T-34 tank on the foot of Zaisan hill and an air war monument in front of the Shukow museum(?). They did take part in the Soviet Operations at Halhin Gol in 1939 and against the Inner Mongolian Japanese puppet state in 1945 (part of the larger Soviet offensive against Japanese forces in August 1945)
 
There were Inner Mongolians that collaborated with the Japanese, and they even founded their own puppet state with capital in Kalgan/Zhangjiakou, but I actually don't know much beyond that they apparently remained neutral in August 1945.
 
Kalmyks and Buryats probably served in the Russian army. There was a number of Kalmyk collaborators in the Wehrmacht as well: http://www.freitag.de/2004/03/04031801.php
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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:18
Anyway, what about Tuva? They joined the USSR in 1944, still in time for some role in the Red Army.
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:55
Originally posted by Desperado

So there were special detachments of "Mongols" in the Soviet army during WW2, which were usually on garrison duty, doing manual labour, raping women and being used as cannon fodder(on the second line ?!! ) ?
   


No but certain units did certain things at certain times. The rape comes after a city or village falls (then garrisson duty). Cannon fodder was taking the village and manual labour describes activities like felling trees as anti tank barriers and digging foxholes.
    
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  Quote Erdene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 05:43
I think I posted pics of central Asians captured by the US in German/SS uniforms???? If not then I will. 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:01

I think that by "mongols" we should refer to ethnic Siberians, tajikis, Ujbekis and other Asians part of the USSR structure of the time. I have seen the photos of asians in German uniforms, apparently they were a few who joined in some SS division after they were taken prisoner by the Germans or they could be "hilfis".

Front-line Soviet formations in the European part of Russia were annihilated during the initial German offensive of the Germans in 1941. The Russian counter-offensive of winter '41-'42 was launched at Stalin's impatient insistence by understrength and ill-equipped units that had been brought from the East and the border with Japan. These included large numbers of ethnic Turks/Siberians. The unpreparedness of these units was one reason why the Wehrmacht, despite the deprivations and the horrible snow, was able to stabilize the front and enter 1942 which its military capability virtually intact. Zhukov was against the offensive and advised more preparation, but "papa" Stalin, of course, had the last word.
In German memoirs that i've read the shock and beffudlement of the Germans upon encountering these "Siberians" is evident. Here they were considering the Russians finished and now they had Asiatics fighting against them. It was going to be a long war for the Germans.
Next mention of "SIberians" that I recall occurs during the Soviet advance through Germany in the last years of the war. These folks made up the bulk of second-echelon troops behind the the front line units of the Red Army and were responsible for the horrible atrocities inflicted upon Germanic ethnic populations and especially German women (the rapes have been well-testified for) during the Red advance. It is characteristic of the situation that the "Siberians" had never encountered toilets before and when they filled one up, and unable to figure out that they could flush it, simply kicked a hole in the toilet for the excrement to run out. Personal hygiene ala Stalin!   
 
 
 
   
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  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 13:37
Ethnic "Siberians".... :)
So Siberia is some kind of "Mongols land"?
It's the same as calling "America" land of "Indians".
The biggest ethnic group in Siberia are the Russians. About the rest...a little bit less reading of Dr. Goebbels redacted materials would be propper.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 05:18
Originally posted by Desperado

Ethnic "Siberians".... :)
So Siberia is some kind of "Mongols land"?
It's the same as calling "America" land of "Indians".
The biggest ethnic group in Siberia are the Russians. About the rest...a little bit less reading of Dr. Goebbels redacted materials would be propper.


I'm not an expert on Siberia but I think that it's scarcely populated and a good part is indigenous populations,Laps and, yes, Siberians. Related to the Inuits? I am not claiming that Siberians are Mongols???I'm saying the exact opposite in my post have you read it?

PS why any russian would ever wanna go live in Siberia, anyway? Moscow is not cold enough fer ya?
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  Quote Desperado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 17:26

Originally posted by konstantinius


PS why any russian would ever wanna go live in Siberia, anyway?

    I appreciate your sence of humour!
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 13:30
Originally posted by konstantinius

The Russian counter-offensive of winter '41-'42 was launched at Stalin's impatient insistence by understrength and ill-equipped units that had been brought from the East and the border with Japan. These included large numbers of ethnic Turks/Siberians. The unpreparedness of these units was one reason why the Wehrmacht, despite the deprivations and the horrible snow, was able to stabilize the front and enter 1942 which its military capability virtually intact. 
 
The Soviet troops used in the offensive were not unprepared nor were they some kind of "Asiatic Horde".   Instead, many were combat veterans  from the war with Japan.   Their rank included European Russians from Siberia as well. 
 
The Germans stabilized the Front after suffering huge losses in experienced personnel.  Thats why armies of Italians, Rumanians and Hungarians were needed to screen their flanks at Stalingrad. And no, the uhmmm... "Germanic Knights"  were not beaten by superior numbers.  They were out fought by about 80,000 Siberians.
Originally posted by konstantinius

It is characteristic of the situation that the "Siberians" had never encountered toilets before and when they filled one up, and unable to figure out that they could flush it, simply kicked a hole in the toilet for the excrement to run out. Personal hygiene ala Stalin!   
Flush toliets could be pretty rare at that time in the West (rural Italy) as well.   Many of the White share cropper's sons recruited for the U.S. Army from the rural south were probably not used to flush toliets on a day to day basis.  For some, their Army issued Boots were their first experience with year 'round shoes.
 
Either too much Goebbels or too many old Signal magazines Wink


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Dec-2006 at 14:31
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 03:35
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by konstantinius

The Russian counter-offensive of winter '41-'42 was launched at Stalin's impatient insistence by understrength and ill-equipped units that had been brought from the East and the border with Japan. These included large numbers of ethnic Turks/Siberians. The unpreparedness of these units was one reason why the Wehrmacht, despite the deprivations and the horrible snow, was able to stabilize the front and enter 1942 which its military capability virtually intact. 
 
The Soviet troops used in the offensive were not unprepared nor were they some kind of "Asiatic Horde".   Instead, many were combat veterans  from the war with Japan.   Their rank included European Russians from Siberia as well.

They were unprepared. That's why an all-out offensive against an exhausted and bled Wehrmacht fialed. And those numbers were superior in the 1941-42 offensive. Read some books that are neither Goebells or Signal magazine (whatever the f**k that is, it'sthe first time I hear about it).
And I'm not claiming that Soviet troops were "some kind of Asiatic horde". I said "they included large numbers of ethic Turks/Siberians". I would like to note here that I least I give a more specific ethnic origin whereas you in your enlighthened American attitude lump them all as "Asiatic horde"; how anti-Nazi of youWink
 
The Germans stabilized the Front after suffering huge losses in experienced personnel.  Thats why armies of Italians, Rumanians and Hungarians were needed to screen their flanks at Stalingrad. And no, the uhmmm... "Germanic Knights"  were not beaten by superior numbers.  They were out fought by about 80,000 Siberians.

Stalingrad was later. You're mixing up your years.And I think all the allied armies were with Army Group South, nor Center which was the one that bore the brunt of the Soviet counter offensive '41-'42.
And, uhmmm...by the way, where did you find in my post anything about "Germanic knights"? And you want to be more specific about those 80,000 Siberians? Are you refering to Stalingrad  or '41-'42?




Originally posted by konstantinius

It is characteristic of the situation that the "Siberians" had never encountered toilets before and when they filled one up, and unable to figure out that they could flush it, simply kicked a hole in the toilet for the excrement to run out. Personal hygiene ala Stalin!   
Flush toliets could be pretty rare at that time in the West (rural Italy) as well.   Many of the White share cropper's sons recruited for the U.S. Army from the rural south were probably not used to flush toliets on a day to day basis.  For some, their Army issued Boots were their first experience with year 'round shoes.

Flush toilets were rare in cental Europe in the 1940's? Are you serious? I don't know about the American south and their experience with boots and toilets but the Europeans of the time surely had that down
 
Either too much Goebbels or too many old Signal magazines Wink.

Sounds like you should head up north to find some real toilets.Tongue

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 07:42
 
 
   
The quote function in your reply did not fuction well...
 
Anyways...
 
1. No, I am not mixing up my years.  I am talking about Moscow in November / December 1941 just as you are.  The Germans were stopped and thrown back by 80,000 troops from the Soviet Far East.  Some of these troops paraded in Red Square immediatly before going to the Front.  Any history book to confirm this.   Here is a brief link in reference to it.  
 
Note, the Germans did not have true national conscription in 1941 (later initiated in 1943).  The unreplaced  casualties (especially of experienced veterans) suffered in front of Moscow in 1941 contributed to a reliance on Rumanian, Italian,  Hungarians troops to screen German flanks at Stalingrand in Fall / winter 1942.
 
2. Signal was the old Wermacht Propaganda Magazine.  I am surprised that you have not heard of it.  Your post appears to be a redaction of it.
 
3. As far as a "Asiatic Hordes"  go... You seem to over emphasize the valid  "Rape and Pillage" atrocities of Soviet Centeral Asian / Siberian soldiers. The truth is that Centeral Asians etc.  are no more prone to brutality than Germans.  
 
4.) As far as flush toliets in USA /  Europe in the 1940s....   Yes, they were common in the cities and towns.   They were also far less common in rural areas.   As far as shoe on US recruits from the South, study pictures of the children of Share Croppers and Coal miners for the 1930s and 1940s.  You will see plenty of children in school and at play with out shoes.  The reason is poverty.  Shoes were an expensive commodity and were not commonly worn in the summer and spring to save on wear.  


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Dec-2006 at 09:44
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 14:54
1. If my memory treats me well, the Soviet offensive in 1941-42 was launched with close to 1.1 million troops all across the central front. I'm sitting at the library in school and can't check my sources right now but I will and repost if neccessary. Are you saying the Russians launched the offensive with only 80,000 troops? 
Without wanting to demean the heroic defense of their motherland by Russian soldiers/sailors, they were the victims of their own leadership or rather lack thereof. Also, you're underestimating General Winter who killed more Germans than the Russians did. I'm not downplaying the fighting abilities of the Russians especially in defense of their homeland; but it's also a fact that the Germans were overextended, bled, and freezing to death. All of their own making, of course (or rather Hitler's).
 
2. I seriously had no idea what Signal is. But now i'm gonna start checking out. As a valuable historical source on WW II, of course, and nothing elseWink. Thanks for the tip.
 
3. Absolutely correct. Which means that they too comitted atrocities. This doesn't downplay the seriousness of Nazi-perpetrated crimes across Europe and especially in Russia. But it shouldn't shroud the fact they they (the Russians) were also brutal, and not just to the Germans.
 
4. I don't doubt poverty. I don't think you got my joke. Oh, well. Perhaps it's my sense of humour. I guess I've been reading too much Signal magazineLOL  
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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 17:27
Thnaks for the reply's pplz.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 19:19
Originally posted by konstantinius

1. If my memory treats me well, the Soviet offensive in 1941-42 was launched with close to 1.1 million troops all across the central front. I'm sitting at the library in school and can't check my sources right now but I will and repost if neccessary. Are you saying the Russians launched the offensive with only 80,000 troops?  
Not on the whole front.  The 80,000 fresh Siberians in used in the Moscow area.  This is also the area where the Soviets had the biggest gains and is a good indicator of the skill of these troops.   As far as Genral Winter goes, the Germans were definelty under prepared in everthing from uniforms to lubricants and suffered more accordingly.  In recognition of the Soviet fighting skills, however, a Soviet General is quoted as saying "Our troops suffer from the cold too"  
 
Signal....
 
It was a magazine highlighting German, German allies and Waffen SS volunteers from the occupied countries.  Both repoductions and originals are around (E-Bay?).   The few issues I have read contained propaganda (no surprise) but seemed to avoid the hard core anti semitic or "untermechnen" (sp) rants from Goebbels.   
 
WWII on Eastern Front in general....
 
Perhap I was a little sarcastic in my defense of Soviets.  The Germans were unit by unit,  the most lethally efficient army in WWII and one of the best in history.    There are, however, alot of simplified beliefs on the internet about WWII on the Eastern Front.  Most of these beliefs can be generalized as....
 
Once upon a time, gallant German knights and their friends, warriors with peers,  stood between western  civilization and the Bolshevik hordes.  Sure, some of these fantastic warriors had a few rough edges, but they all had good intentions.  Never beaten in open battle, these undaunted warriors were eventually defeated only by endless human wave attacks of Bolshevik hordes.  
 
The truth of course, is far more complex, and in my opinion, far more interesting.     


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Dec-2006 at 20:05
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