Byzantine-Bulgarian Relations

Bo, please stick to the point of the thread! What you do is against forum policy and continuing to do so may/will result to an official warning or worse.

We talk about Bulgarian-Byzantine realtions.Then lets mention bulgatian ruler Tsar Kaloyan.In the beginning greeks were his allies,but then everything changed.And Kaloyan defeated them just like everyone else.I want to know about Kaloyan sieges of Thessaloniki.I say sieges because i know that he besieged the city two times.The first one was(i cant remember the year)with he cooperation of greeks and Kaloyan even capture the outer city but then he allow the greeks to conquer the city alone but they were defeated by latins.I want to know if this information is correct.

Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski Seeing how we're going to start about Kaloyan,does anyone have a document which says how much were the crusaders he crushed at Adrianople on April 14 1205? And is it true that a western auhor(don't know the name) wrote that "the beauty of the western knighthood" disappeared there?

Geoffrey de Villehardouin I think is this author you are thinking of. It is true that a great deal of the best Latin knights were killed at Adrianople, whilst King Baldwin himself was taken prisoner. After the battle, the survivors raced back to Constantinople and only the calm leadership of the Venetian Doge was able to hold together the Latin forces. But Ionnitsa failed to follow up his victory due to his sheer brutality. While he wanted to make himself king of the Bulgars and Greeks, he butchered so many Greeks that the Greeks themselves were willing to side with the Latins.

Originally posted by Krum I didnt know that Kaloyan wanted to make himself tsar of Bulgars and Greeks.He started killing greeks because of their betrayal.It was only a brutal revenge.But his main enemy were still latins.=

The title "Tzar of Bulgarians and Greeks/Romaioi" was rather a title showing his ambitions:To rule to the regions inhabited by these people.
The same was for Stephan Dusan "Kral of Serbians and Greeks/Romeoi"
or even Mehmet II (!) "Sultan of Turks and Rum"

What was "the betrayal" of the Greeks?
In fact Greeks turned against him because of the looting and plundering by his troops.They were composed mostly by Vlachs and Cumans -for them looting was part of their living and they didnt make any defference between Greeks and Latins.
Greeks then called Ioannitzes ,"Skyloyiannis"(Dog John) and when it was murdered during the siege by a general of his army ,a rumor was spread: St.Demetrios himself the protector of the city,killed him.


Edited by Brainstorm - 09-Dec-2006 at 03:12

Greeks didnt turned against him because of his army looting.They did it because his power grew up and he became a threat for them.And Kaloyan also call himself Rōmaioktonos ("Romanslayer"), as a counter-derivative from Basil II's Boulgaroktonos ("Bulgarslayer").

But it is a fact that Kaloyan was the most powerful ruler on the Balkans and he was never defeated in a battle.I mean he was great military leader.And if it wasnt his murder i dont want to guess what would happen.

May be it is a city.

Originally posted by Krum Greeks didnt turned against him because of his army looting.They did it because his power grew up and he became a threat for them.

A threat for whom?
I mean,Greeks who were with him and then turned against him ,were under latin occupation.Peasants,farmers and citizens who preferred first his rule rather this of the crusaders.
So,there wasn't any threat by just his rule.

His power could be a threat for the free Greek Monarchies of Epirus and Nicea,but it was too early for this:their primary aim was to stand up to the latins.

@Anton
R u sure for "Bulgaropolis" ?
There was a town in Eastern Thrace called "Bulgarofygon" (Feugo=leave,run away), probably in a site of a battle between Byzantines and Bulgarians.



Edited by Brainstorm - 09-Dec-2006 at 11:35

There was a town in Eastern Thrace called "Bulgarofygon" (Feugo=leave,run away), probably in a site of a battle between Byzantines and Bulgarians.

Just found!
Boulgarofygon is named "Botirgaroflc" by Villeardouin.
So maybe it's different then!

I always believed that Krum drank whatever he drank from that bloody cup but today I found surprising thing. It seems that Theophanes described this story as follows: