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Byzantine-Bulgarian Relations

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  Quote theMacedonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Byzantine-Bulgarian Relations
    Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 11:28

I think the bulgars did not call Constantinople "Tzarigrad" because it was not centre for monarchi for the bulgars... so they had no reason to call it that way.

and by the way if u think that Tzar Samoil is a Bulgarian... then ur kidding urself. ;)

 

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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 12:02
Originally posted by Anton

 
I don't understand the reason of that discussion. OK, bulgarians failed. As well as arabs, russians and others. Mostly because of brilliant Byzantine diplomacy (my personal opinion). But do you, my dear friend Brainstorm, remember the end of the story?



By "the end of the story" ,

do u mean 1018? (when Bulgaria was conquered by Byzantine empire)
1453? (when Byzantine emp. was conquered after 1000 years)
the end of history? (when the Second coming of Christ will be)
smth else?

what would u think of a thread like "terror of the Bulgarians?"
I think it would be the same silly.








Edited by Brainstorm - 25-Oct-2006 at 12:03
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 12:25
I ment 1453. I think the topic is silly. But your responses are equally silly.
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:51
Well, they did. Tzar comes from "ceaser", "The Emperors City" in a certain way.

Care to explain why Samuil (and his descendents) was called in contemporary chronicles "Bulgarian tsar"?

As for Constantinopole- you need a navy if you plan a long siege. Any, absolutely any city can be taken by an assault. I'm not saying that it would be easy (nor that it is certain) but it is doable.
Why did the Crusaders manage to do it?
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:56
The crusaders managed to do it,because the city had insufficient troops to defend itself.With a proper ,well trained guard of thousands defending the city from the strongest Medieval European walls ,Constantinople would never fall without cannons.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:15
Originally posted by nikodemos

Does anyone know the origin of this custom of keeping the skull of a
fallen enemy as a trophy and turning it into a drinking vessel?
Was it a practice or custom of all the steppe tribes?




This is ritual connected with protobulgarian religion and cult of Orenda.According to it,there is a mystic super power that exist in the head and the blood of every creature on the earth.Protobulgarians thought that khans,rulers and great persons had much from this power.
When Krum drank wine from the head of the byzantine emperor he took his power and become stronger.That was not barbarism but a very honorable ritual.
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:29
This cult reminds me of "Predator",i mean the movie
thanx Krum
Do we know the deeper roots of this cult?
How can we explain the fact that this cult was performed also by other tribes such as the Lombards who were germanics?
It must be connected somehow to the same cult performed by the Scythians in antiquity.This cult perhaps passed from the Scythians to the Sarmatians and from the Sarmatians to other tribes such as the Bulgars and the Lombards.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:40
The same did some Russian kings as far as I remember. Nikodemos, according to archeological data Bulgarians either were heavily mixed with Sarmatian tribes or adopted many habits of them. Like artificial school deformation for example.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:42
I am not sure from who bulgars took it or it was originally their.But it was very important for protobulgarian society,because the power of ruling houses were compared by their orenda.Very Interesting thing is that if a protobulgarian leader failed as a warrior or commander or is physically incomplete he will be killed.Khan Krum is the perfect example.Although he had great military achievments he was ritually killed because of his physically inferior condition.It was a sacred murdera and it was performed because protobu;gars thought Krum would lose his power.They choke him because only in that way they wouldnt spill his blood and if that happened his power wouldn't be preserved to his descendants.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:48
May be there are to possible theories for this cult.
The first one is that bulgars were a turkic tribe that settled in Caucasian region in probably 2 century AC where they mixed with sarmathians and took many things from their culture.
The second one is that protobulgarians simply were indo-european tribe with was similar to Sarmathians.
There is and a third one that is a little bit curios.It says that bulgars were Sarmathians.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 15:12
Sarmatians,Scythians,Bulgars( those times ) all were Turkic.its a normal thing that they have common customs.
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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 15:26
Schtians were half-Turkic,half-İranic.Bulgars are Turkic but slavizied,we can't call them Turkic,
Sarmatians?I have never heard that they are Turkic.I don't think so,they are not.Any source?
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 17:41
Originally posted by Batu

Sarmatians,Scythians,Bulgars( those times ) all were Turkic.its a normal thing that they have common customs.


For you Batu every steppe tribe was  turkicLOL

No, actually the widely accepted view today is that the Scythians and the Sarmatians were iranian people.For the Bulgars krum gave all three possibilities in a previous post.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:17
In any case, Bulgarians were heavily influenced by turks being as part of western turkic khanate, avar khanate and possibly hunn empire. Bulgarian kanes'es even derived their roots from Attila (which was called Avitohol in bulgarian document "List of Bulgarian Kings") and his son Irnik.
 
Rather complete review of available sources about Bulgarians in Pannonia, Illiria and Italy could be found here:
 
Armenian sources from the same book is here:
 
In general, author seems to support idea that bulgars were tribes similar to Sarmatians but his criticism is on a high level in allcases.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:26
Originally posted by Batu

Sarmatians,Scythians,Bulgars( those times ) all were Turkic.its a normal thing that they have common customs.


Wrong, Scythians and Sarmatians, I believe, actually had Iranic roots.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 20:06
Scythians had Turkic elements aswell as the Altay region was a part of the Scythian domain.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 26-Oct-2006 at 20:15
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 20:10
Does anybody know what the idea of Iranian origin of Scyths and Sarmatians is based on? I do not doubt it I am just interested how historians did come to those conclusions?

Edited by Anton - 26-Oct-2006 at 20:10
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 20:15
The Bulgars saved the Eastern Roman Empire from the Arab seige, were Bulgars and Eastern Romans Allies at the time? what sparked the later wars?
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 23:57
Originally posted by Bulldog

The Bulgars saved the Eastern Roman Empire from the Arab seige, were Bulgars and Eastern Romans Allies at the time? what sparked the later wars?


They were usually enemies. It is just that the threat of the Arabs was enough to motivate them to ally. Occasionally they were friends during periods when both nations had leaders who were either peace loving or had problems with other neighbouring peoples.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 06:39
What about Kan Kubrat's and Old Great Bulgaria time? It seems that both countries didn't have big problems at that time.
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