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Byzantine-Bulgarian Relations
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Liudovik_Nemski View Drop Down
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Posts: 262 		  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Byzantine-Bulgarian Relations
    Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 15:58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Krum

The skull of the roman emperor Nikephoros was a glass of the bulgar khans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

Simeon I tzar of bulgars and romans.







Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 23-Oct-2006 at 16:12
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Constantine XI View Drop Down
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:13
You obviously haven't read about Kleidion and Samuel.

Do stop posting in such a fashion, it brings nothing to the forum.
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Liudovik_Nemski View Drop Down
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Posts: 262 		  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:25
I just gave the guys some reading.Bulgaria was a major threat for the Byzantines and would have even sacked their capital twice.
The country is forgotten by most historians and now i try to revive it.
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:27
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski

I just gave the guys some reading.Bulgaria was a major threat for the Byzantines and would have even sacked their capital twice.
The country is forgotten by most historians and now i try to revive it.


That's fine, but I have done a fair bit of study on Byzantium and I cannot agree with you that Bulgaria would have sacked Byzantium on two occasions. The Bulgars never had the combination of naval strength, siege engineering skills and so forth required to take Constantinople. They camped outside its walls many times, but never had the strength to take it.
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:39
You forgot to post this link:
 


Edited by Komnenos - 23-Oct-2006 at 16:41
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:51
LOL You are evil Komnenos
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Posts: 262 		  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:54
Originally posted by Komnenos



yes i also forgot to post this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Anchialus


Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 23-Oct-2006 at 16:58
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Komnenos View Drop Down
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 19:20
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski

Originally posted by Komnenos



yes i also forgot to post this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Anchialus
 
 
Well, I'm glad you agreed that the nature of the Bulgar/Byzantine relationship wasn't quite as simplistic as you iniatially portrayed it.
They were a terror to each other, and we can stop playing ping-pong now.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 19:36
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski

The country is forgotten by most historians and now i try to revive it.
 
Actually, Ludovik, you will be surprised how much people in this forum are interested and know about our history. And not only our neighbours. So, instead of posting wiki links, translate one of articles about Simeons diplomacy or his succesfull attempts to rise slavonic written and christian culture. That would be much more interesting Tongue
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 19:42
Originally posted by Anton

 Actually, Ludovik, you will be surprised how much people in this forum are interested and know about our history. And not only our neighbours. So, instead of posting wiki links, translate one of articles about Simeons diplomacy or his succesfull attempts to rise slavonic written and christian culture. That would be much more interesting
 
Very good advice!  I wish more people would follow it.  It would make things more interesting, indeed.
 
Nice work Komnenos and Constantine XI too.  Clap
 
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 20:42
Here are two interesting facts about Samuil.
 
The source (in Bulgarian) is taken from here:
 
In "Strategicon" of Kevkamenos we find several story about strategy of Samuil.
 
It is about city of Larisa which Samuil tried to defeat for 4 years. Being unsuccessfull he changed strategy and  came to the walls of Larissa 3 times a year at moments required for growing up of the wheat. So, citizens of Larissa could not get enough bread to live and after third year they surrendered. Interesting for me here is that Samuil didn't spend all three years under the walls of Larisa but did this together with sort of speak other projects Smile. What surprised me here is that it seems that Larisa was important city for both sides and I cannot understand why Byzantium didn't provide enough food between raids of Samuil.
 
In Strategicon Kevkamenos express strong respect to the strategic skills of Samuil. Samuil did the same: after defeat of Larissa he said: "Many thanks to Imperor Vasilios" (as far as I understood he used official way) "that he took Kevkamenos and saved me from his cunnings"
 
 
Another interesting story was about defeat of Vasilios under Moria city. Imperor used stone throwing mechanisms to destruct the city walls and than created embankment around the city. In response, bulgarians invented a "cunning that should be remembered" as Kevkamenos wrote. They send several brave men who went deep to the embankment and burned it from inside. The fire were not seen untill the morning and then suddenly the whole construction felt apart. This is answer to you, Constantine XI, that precise and scientific approach is not always the best solution in war. So, same Simeon could have a chanse to take Constantinople. Other thing is that he suddenly died during his preparations, which might be a result of smart Byzantine diplomacy Smile 
 
These are interesting examples of creativity of Bulgarian warriors during Samuil's time. Some examples of wrong behavior of Bulgarians could be also find there.


Edited by Anton - 24-Oct-2006 at 03:55
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Liudovik_Nemski View Drop Down
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Posts: 262 		  Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 01:54
Something about Khan Telerig which he wrote to the roman emperor:

"I'm planning to run away and come to you.Just tell me your closest people which you have in Bulgaria in order for me to ask them for help."

The emperor wrote him all their names and once Telerig found who the spies are he killed them all!LOL
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Posts: 89 		  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 10:41
And it's such an irony that Telerig in the end had to seek refuge in Byzantium...

As for the capabilities of the Bulgars to take Constantinople (or Tzarigrad, as they called it)- on twice, if not three times they could have done it. Not to say it was possible at any given moment, or that it would have been easy but it was a possibility.

The first was the offensive which khan Krum undertook in 814. He had more than 30 000 elite, experienced and very well armoured soldiers (not counting the "support personel"). The matterial for the siege machines was to be transported by 5000 cars, pulled by 10 000 oxes.
A crucial part was played by the byzantine engineer Evmatius (sp?), who fled to Krum.
The march was on it's way when Krum died and the soldiers were recalled.

The second one, organised by Simeon didn't reach that pfase but it is regarded as an even larger one. The tzar died during the preperations from a massive heart stroke...

    
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Constantine XI View Drop Down
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 15:34
Originally posted by Burdokva

And it's such an irony that Telerig in the end had to seek refuge in Byzantium...

As for the capabilities of the Bulgars to take Constantinople (or Tzarigrad, as they called it)- on twice, if not three times they could have done it. Not to say it was possible at any given moment, or that it would have been easy but it was a possibility.

The first was the offensive which khan Krum undertook in 814. He had more than 30 000 elite, experienced and very well armoured soldiers (not counting the "support personel"). The matterial for the siege machines was to be transported by 5000 cars, pulled by 10 000 oxes.
A crucial part was played by the byzantine engineer Evmatius (sp?), who fled to Krum.
The march was on it's way when Krum died and the soldiers were recalled.

The second one, organised by Simeon didn't reach that pfase but it is regarded as an even larger one. The tzar died during the preperations from a massive heart stroke...

    


And where was the Bulgar navy? Without a navy the city simply would not fall, history has proven that.
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Posts: 407 		  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 04:49
Krum left as he came..
Symeon didnt even try.
800 years next to BYzantium and not a single serious effort to siege Constantinople,when Rus tried 3 times (or more) ,Arabs twice,Avars and Persians,Crusaders,Turks...
Bulgarians also never achieved to conquer Thessaloniki.
(They failed several times)
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 05:08
Constantinople had the best  and the strongest walls ever build in Medieval times.Only once they were besieged,and that time only with the help of cannons.(When the city was captured by the crusaders in 1204,only the coastal walls were bridged,not the main wall line in the land.)
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 05:59
Originally posted by Brainstorm

Krum left as he came..
Symeon didnt even try.
800 years next to BYzantium and not a single serious effort to siege Constantinople,when Rus tried 3 times (or more) ,Arabs twice,Avars and Persians,Crusaders,Turks...
Bulgarians also never achieved to conquer Thessaloniki.
(They failed several times)
 
I don't understand the reason of that discussion. OK, bulgarians failed. As well as arabs, russians and others. Mostly because of brilliant Byzantine diplomacy (my personal opinion). But do you, my dear friend Brainstorm, remember the end of the story?
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Posts: 248 		  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:48
Does anyone know the origin of this custom of keeping the skull of a fallen enemy as a trophy and turning it into a drinking vessel?
Was it a practice or custom of all the steppe tribes?
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:52
Originally posted by nikodemos

Does anyone know the origin of this custom of keeping the skull of a fallen enemy as a trophy and turning it into a drinking vessel?
Was it a practice or custom of all the steppe tribes?
 
I might be wrong but I have an impression that Skyths and Sarmatians did that.
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Posts: 248 		  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 11:12
The Lombards did that too.
Herodotos describes i think this custom of the Scythians.
No wonder why the Greeks called the Bulgars sometimes Scythians
After the christianisation of the Bulgarians i think that this custom disappeared
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