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The Bahais / Babis-Why were they persecuted

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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Bahais / Babis-Why were they persecuted
    Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 04:39
Any one knows why the Bahais were persecuted, What were there teachings, Comparative study of their belief, the current state etc..
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 05:22
Becuase they're viewed as heretics (particualarly in Shiism, I can't remmber the deatils though).  They teach that Baha'ullah, their 19th century prophet was the messiah.  You can get more details from google on them.
 
Our doctor in Iran was Baha'i, he was murdered because of his faith soon after the Extremists took over after the revolution.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 05:29
an old iranian told me they were a british invention of sorts, dont know if that is true.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 05:54
We have a grand Bahai temple in India.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 21:13
Originally posted by Leonidas

an old iranian told me they were a british invention of sorts, dont know if that is true.

Aye. I don't know if its true, proveable, or anti-bahai propaganda, but both the bahai's and the ahmedis are seen to be english divide and conquor attempts.

There are two streams of thoughts on Bahais, either they are heretics, or they are muslims. I personally don't think either to be correct. Their religion (as far as I know) teaches that all religions, and all holy books are from God.
After skimming over their holy book once, it mainly quotes from the bible and the Quran. Taking quotes out of context and providing its own commentry. The writing style is much better than the bible's but still much worse than the Qurans.

Personally I don't understand how the religion works. Its sort of like all religions are correct (or something). Which doesn't make sense to me because different religions are clearly contradictory.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 22:19
The Bahai began as a messianic movement within Shi'ism in the Safawid state, and eventually grew into its own religion. They consider their religion to be the summation of all previous religious traditions perfected for the modern age. They were exiled into the Ottoman state where their leader was eventually executed as a heretic and rebel against the state in the province of Palestine.

Originally posted by Omar

There are two streams of thoughts on Bahais, either they are heretics, or they are muslims


Neither Bahai themselves nor any branch of the Muslims consider them to be Muslims, this is perhaps a misconception which exists due to the fact their beginnings were within Shi'a Islam.

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 23:08
I talked to several once at a festival.
 
Another important Shrine is in Hafia,  Israel.   Evidently some of the founders of Bahaism fled there after being perescuted in Iran.   I believe that their founder is referred to by the title  "The Door " in much the same way that Jesus is given the title "The Christ".  
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

an old iranian told me they were a british invention of sorts, dont know if that is true.
Bahaism is clearly a genuine religion indigenous to the area.  Some of the eary converts / translators were English women though.  Perhaps this led to the "English invention" rumor.
 
The material that they gave me emphasized that they are encouraged to marry other ethnic groups (unity of the human family).  It also gave the story of a 19 year old girl martyred in Iran during the 1990s after she refused to renounce her faith.
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 19-Oct-2006 at 23:16
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 01:29
Bahaism is clearly a genuine religion indigenous to the area.


Why do you believe it is genuinely indigenous? It only began around the time that Western colonial interest in the region began, so I think there's clearly a good case for the claim it's a British invention.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 05:27
This strategy would not fit in very well with divide and conquer, as itis obvious such a religious movement would have zero effect overall.  There is a tendency among Iranians, quite rightly in many instances, to blame anomolies and certain afflictions on the British, but this I am afraid is mos def not one of those instances.
 
What the Brits did have a hand in was the funding and propagation of the Mullahs throughout the 30s up until the mid 50s to destabilise Iran's national democratic government of Mossadegh and Reza Shah before him.  An activity which was resuscitated again in the 70s to destabilise the Shah's regime.


Edited by Zagros - 20-Oct-2006 at 05:29
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 05:37
actaully thanks for the clarification.

 though i did question that story, whom am i, to question an old iranian about his countryTongue
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 23:41
Originally posted by Qutuz

Bahaism is clearly a genuine religion indigenous to the area.


Why do you believe it is genuinely indigenous? It only began around the time that Western colonial interest in the region began, so I think there's clearly a good case for the claim it's a British invention.
OK, lets explore the possibility that it is a British colonial invention.   Why would the British need such an invention?    The British had colonies all over the world without resorting to creating new religons to facilitate colonization.
 
It would have been far easier to simply favor existing religous minorities in Iran.  (Christians, Sunni Moslems, Zorastarians etc).   Also, the Bahai Faith has survived well after British Colonial interest in the region ended.  Why would it not have collapsed once British support was withdrawn?


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Oct-2006 at 23:44
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 10:10
Why would the British need such an invention?    The British had colonies all over the world without resorting to creating new religons to facilitate colonization.


Most other British colonies didn't face much of a threat from local inhabitants. Only those in Islamic lands, so there was no need for instance to create a deviant version of the dreamtime in Australia, as the Aborigines there posed next to no threat at all.

This is because most lands the British colonised didn't have very advanced populations, with ideologies and civilisations of their own, which would allow them to rise up with ideas of resisting and reversing the occupation.

It would have been far easier to simply favor existing religous minorities in Iran.  (Christians, Sunni Moslems, Zorastarians etc).


Christians were nowhere near big enough a minority for this to be feasible, and besides Muslims would never adopt Christianity (as we consider to be paganism).

Sunni Muslims are the vast majority in the Muslim lands, Shi'a only make up about 10% of the population overall. You must remember in this time, there was no Iran, it was part of the Safawi empire, which bordered both the Ottoman empire and the British ruled Indian sub-continent. So one of these heresies arose in India and another next door in Safawi Persia. Backing the Sunni Muslims would be the last thing Britain would have been doing. Her mission was to corrupt and neutralise the Sunni Muslims (as they are 90% of all Muslims).

Also, the Bahai Faith has survived well after British Colonial interest in the region ended.  Why would it not have collapsed once British support was withdrawn?


Amongst hippies and few native Persians only. Very few other people have bothered with this breakaway religion, it is as good as dead.



Edited by Qutuz - 22-Oct-2006 at 10:16
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 17:54
Originally posted by Qutuz

Amongst hippies and few native Persians only. Very few other people have bothered with this breakaway religion, it is as good as dead.
Yopur use of the word "native Persiaons" is interesting.  No chance that many believers are Native Persions is because Bahai Faith is a native religion of Iran?
Originally posted by Qutuz


Christians were nowhere near big enough a minority for this to be feasible, and besides Muslims would never adopt Christianity (as we consider to be paganism).
The British colonial system was not in the business of coercing religous conversion to either Christianity or Bahai Faith. 
 
Instead, the British were in the business of economic gain and they conducted this business very well.   The British colonized Moslems in Egypt, Sudan, Jordan, Palestine,  India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Sub Sahara Africa, and Malaysia with out resorting to a religous agenda of coerced conversion.  Why would it be different for Iran?    
 
Of course, the British could and did favor different ethnic groups or religions to facilitate economic stability.  So long as the system profited, I doubt the British had a deep interest in the religons of the colonized.   The Brisith governmetn even restrained activites of missionary groups when the flet these groups threatned stability and economic gain.
 
Are you sure that Moslems view Christians as pagans?  This appears to be in contrast the the concept of  "Peoples of the Book".   
 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Oct-2006 at 18:13
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 00:27
Originally posted by Cryptic

Are you sure that Moslems view Christians as pagans?  This appears to be in contrast the the concept of  "Peoples of the Book".
Cryptic notion of "people of the book" is more precise than Paganism considering Christianity. Muslims, as far as I know, do not consider Jews, Christians (later Zoroastrians were added) to be pagans. Hinduism ,under Islam view, is a pagan religion...etc.
The criteria that differenciate people of the book from pagans is simply:
1- They adhere to one supreme God who alone created the universe and has all the power of that universe. This is in contrast to multiple gods or gods of various powers, such the god of wealth, god of war, god of fertility..etc
2- They follow a supreme book that is believed to be a revelation directly from God or through a messenger. (Torah, Bible, Quran, Avesta..etc)
 
There might be more aspects in defining a non-Pagan religion under Islamic point of view, but I cannot recall more than those main two points.
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  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 03:53

The Christian Trinitarian viewpoint is in contradiction to the Unitarian viewpoint of Islam and Judaism, can Christianity therefore be considered Pagan? Or still be included as 'Peoples of the Book" as there are sects that believe in a Unitarian not a Trinitarian God?

 
 
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 05:34

(qutuz wrote)

Sunni Muslims are the vast majority in the Muslim lands, Shi'a only make up about 10% of the population overall. You must remember in this time, there was no Iran, it was part of the Safawi empire,





Baha'i faith was founded in Qajar times ( 1856 ) not safavid era


Edited by sirius99 - 23-Oct-2006 at 16:12
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 06:52
The Christian Trinitarian viewpoint is in contradiction to the Unitarian viewpoint of Islam and Judaism, can Christianity therefore be considered Pagan? Or still be included as 'Peoples of the Book" as there are sects that believe in a Unitarian not a Trinitarian God?

While many muslims consider than Trinitarian belief comes close to paganism. Christians are firmly a member of 'the people of the book'.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 08:16
Cryptic,

No chance that many believers are Native Persions is because Bahai Faith is a native religion of Iran?


The fact that a few natives adopted it doesn't therefore make it native in the sense that it is "home grown". It could still be an invention of the British.

The British colonized Moslems in Egypt, Sudan, Jordan, Palestine,  India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Sub Sahara Africa, and Malaysia


I'm sure we're quite aware not that one of our lands was spared their ravaging occupation.

Are you sure that Moslems view Christians as pagans?  This appears to be in contrast the the concept of  "Peoples of the Book"


Christians are officially afforded the status of "Ahl al-Kitab" (People of the book), but those for instant who actually worship Jesus (pbuh) as God would most definitely be considered mushrikin (pagans). In the time of the revelation of the Qur'an there still existed a schism in Christianity between monotheists and tritheists, this was known as Arianism. Also a lot of the Christians of the Middle East did not adopt the Nicean creed, but instead were closer to monotheism in their beliefs.

But as far as the standard view of the Catholic, Orthodox & most Protestant denominations go, most of them would be classed as mushrikin. The condition of them being granted Ahl al-Kitab status and not being classed as mushrikin is that they do not take a piece of the creation as their object of worship, and claim something else is God, beside God himself alone.

This is not dissimilar to the injunctions in the Qur'an which permit Muslims to eat the meat of Ahl al-Kitab saying it is Halal (permissable, clean) for us.  This applies to those Christians who used to slaughter their meat according to the rites mentioned in their books (ie. Kosher), but for the vast majority of Christians today, no such concept exists, and their meat is not Halal for us. They only fall under these categories whilst they fulfil the conditions for that category.

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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 08:58
sirius,

Baha'i faith was founded in Qajar times ( 1856 ) not safavid era


You are correct. However, the Qajari empire was almost exactly the same as the Safawi empire (in most respects, just another family had taken the helm) and therefore my point is still valid that the Persian empire at that point in time was a buffer for the British against the Ottomans and also the Russians (which I forgot to mention), and that seeding a heresy there would definitely be advantageous to them.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 10:41
Originally posted by Qutuz


Christians are officially afforded the status of "Ahl al-Kitab" (People of the book), but those for instant who actually worship Jesus (pbuh) as God would most definitely be considered mushrikin (pagans).
Yes, that is all Christians.  Even the non Nicean Coptic, Armenian and Ethiopian Churches are included.    
 
And since all Christians are Pagans by definition, what is to be done with pagans and their communities acocrding to Islam?     


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Oct-2006 at 10:42
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