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National historical myths and bias on AE

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  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National historical myths and bias on AE
    Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 04:26
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

You should also take into account that western Europe faced the consequences of nationalistic and overzealous history, and learned from it. We must not forget that history itself is a product of the appearance of Nationalism.
I also once heard a theory that agressive nationalism is bigger countries with shorter pasts. Those nations still need to build themselves a solid identity, and history is an important factor in that. Most countries in western Europe are old and have a well documented history without a lot of large controversies in it. This makes nationalism less necessary, as 'we know who we are, and there is no doubt about it...' Smile


You are so right about this.
Many countries try to make their own history nowdays in many different ways. I dont want to give examples.

It is also true that from the ancient years heroes and myths were created in order to give a boost to their national pride and help their morale against their enemies. For e.g. the Greeks had Achillies and Hercules. Every man was raised with Iliad and wanted to be like him.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 06:26
Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 07:42
Originally posted by flyingzone

If course, the idea of the creation of national myths is central to the thesis of Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communities". As a matter of fact, it is not simply the homogenization of the curriculum and the teaching of history that helps to create these national myths, hence boosting the idea of a "national identity" that does not really exist. Anderson shrewdly points out three other institutions of power which eventually help to shape the way in which states imagine its dominion - the census, the map, and the museum. These three institutions correspond flawlessly to the nature of the human beings a state rules, the geography of its domain, and the legitimacy of its ancestry.

Ok not only was Decebals post of true academiv quality (bravo), but flyingzone brings back a hazy book title memory (flashback) from Uni. I have covered a part of that book but i cant remember in one of my sub major's or that multiculturalism class.Ermm

In Australia we dont have big national hero's either, not of the kind that other nations have. We never had a war of independance, civil war or a real struggle against invaders and that definatly makes a difference. We do, however, have our own particular way of seeing ourselves and that i think helps on, who we choose to celebrate.

Firstly we have the ANZACS of WW1 (especially Gallipoli), to me thats the closest thing we have. Difference here; its a group, we lost, it had nothing directly to do with Australia. Though the flags comes out on ANZAC day it was fought for britain under the union jack. Over here they represent bravery in the face of death, the young "digger" soldier stuck in a someone elses war on the other side of world, but fights on anyway (and well). This is another manifestation of the australian love of the "little man" or "battler" and really reinforces a way we see ourself and our country. Another big emphasis is their mateship, the way they stuck together, as little guys have to of course. Come to think about, it was the british officers that tend to become our surrogate "nemesis", not the turks.

I will add use three exmaples that get alot of attention and/or have their own films: Ned kelly a bushranger (Bandit) ended up hanged, Harry "Breaker" Morant (court-martailed and shot during the Boer war), Jack Simpson Kirkpatrick (a medic that saved many ANZACS using his donkey for transport) but wasnt even born here.

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Edited by Leonidas - 17-Oct-2006 at 07:43
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".

 
 
If you would have made the effort to read Deceba's post more carefully, you might have noticed that he specifically stated that he would analyse three nations as examples.
In my dictionary, example means a singular instance as being representative for a whole set of instances.
Not that terribly difficult to understand, I would think.


Edited by Komnenos - 17-Oct-2006 at 08:18
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:43
Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".

 
while practically every country revolves around similar lines.
Which is precisely the point of Decebal's post. You are making a fool out of yourself with such stupid remarks, you know.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:54
 
..An interesting topic and food for thought, and something to get one's teeth into!!...There is a lot going on here but i would like to add a couple of paragraphs that do not refer to every point Decebal has made, but i think, gives a personal perspective to the questions and issues raised....
 
.......Regarding your view that taught history in a particular country provides indoctrination that is maintained throughout a person's life, is not something I would whole-heartedly agree with. I can understand that at different times, schoolchildren will be taught using different resource books and perceptions of history will be considered the norm for that particular period of time. I am sure that history taught to my father is fairly different to the history I was taught. For example, the idea of Empire was one historical episode that was once taught as a fully positive episode in Britains history. However, the notion of Empire has since been debated and tackled by a number of revisionists who question this part of my countrys history. My point here is that in Britain, I find that revisionism is not covered up. It IS tackled in schools and the different kinds of media whether it be television, radio, books, radio etc. There will always be those individuals who stick by a black or white version; however, the more balanced individuals would focus more on an appropriate variety of opinions and this is generally what happens. This kind of history curriculum inevitably changes as time goes by as historical perspectives are revised, perspectives altered, and more importantly as newer documents and resources become available. Schoolchildren would, in an ideal world, be taught from updated and newer texts that reflect that history moves on. Now I think this, in general, is true in my own country (England). It would be wrong for me to make assumptions about other countries, as I do not have that kind of experience. However, I will admit that for every American I have met who insists it was the United States who won World War I and II, for every Frenchman I have met who insists that France is the most cultured nation on Earth, for every German I have met who insists Hitler had the right idea, I have met countless Englishman who still state that the Spitfire defeated the Luftwaffe, that without Englands heroic stand in WWII Europe would be now Nazified, that Winston Churchill is the greatest human being ever. As always, elements of truth exist in all these statements, but they do NOT contain the whole truth and they should NOT be taught as such.

 

......Mentioning Winston Churchill brings me neatly to Point 1 concerning the creation of great historical national heroes. Once again, I think this is a valid point and I can relate to this from personal experience. Here I will readily admit that Britains historical heroes have more often than not, been elevated way beyond the actual truth. (Although once again, historical revisionism of these heroes takes place on a regular basis in the UK). For me personally, as a young boy I was taken by the images and exploits of people such as Winston Churchill, Richard the Lionheart, Oliver Cromwell, Elizabeth I, Douglas Bader, Harold Godwinson, and Boudicea, although I was equally taken by such figures as Genghis Khan, Erwin Rommel, Abraham Lincoln, Saladin, and Bonaparte. I remember being greatly influenced by my perceptions of these people, and those perceptions were shaped by pictures and stories presented in book form. I was also lucky enough to be taken on visits to historical sites where I could physically feel the presence of history; and it is THIS feeling point, I believe, what developed into a my passion for history in general. At secondary school, I cannot, with hand on my heart, remember one thing I was taught in class about history. I actually hated my history lessons, but this did not detract from my extra-curricular historical activities and interest!!! However, although I still retain a good degree of interest in these characters, my historical knowledge concerning them has changed over the years as I have become more aware, more enquiring and more open-minded to other points of view, In particular, after I gained my BA in History. This does not make them any more lesser in my eyes, indeed, knowing the full picture actually develops my interest even further. I can still make a good argument why these heroes should be notable and positive figures from the past, but I am equally prepared to see that for some, my heroes would be vilified.

 

..........I would like to think I have provided a case that relates to what Decebal has been saying, but it is highly subjective and from my own countrys perspective. Ultimately, I really do think that the issues raised in Decebals post primarily concerns the provision of education in a particular country at a particular time. I would tend to think that education differs from one country to another and until full freedom of research is available to all, until a reasonable and stable form of democracy can be founded everywhere, then such historical bias and distortions will always exist. Of course, I full realise that true democracy will probably never be achieved, most likely cannot be achieved, and that this is an ideal vision. However, just like the role of professional and well-educated historical research, the aim should be to reach the best, most-well informed presentation possible, be it politics or a history book.

 
From moderator: post "re-sized" for better readability 

 



Edited by flyingzone - 17-Oct-2006 at 11:21
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 09:33
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by flyingzone

If course, the idea of the creation of national myths is central to the thesis of Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communities". As a matter of fact, it is not simply the homogenization of the curriculum and the teaching of history that helps to create these national myths, hence boosting the idea of a "national identity" that does not really exist. Anderson shrewdly points out three other institutions of power which eventually help to shape the way in which states imagine its dominion - the census, the map, and the museum. These three institutions correspond flawlessly to the nature of the human beings a state rules, the geography of its domain, and the legitimacy of its ancestry.

Ok not only was Decebals post of true academiv quality (bravo), but flyingzone brings back a hazy book title memory (flashback) from Uni. I have covered a part of that book but i cant remember in one of my sub major's or that multiculturalism class.Ermm

In Australia we dont have big national hero's either, not of the kind that other nations have. We never had a war of independance, civil war or a real struggle against invaders and that definatly makes a difference. We do, however, have our own particular way of seeing ourselves and that i think helps on, who we choose to celebrate.

Firstly we have the ANZACS of WW1 (especially Gallipoli), to me thats the closest thing we have. Difference here; its a group, we lost, it had nothing directly to do with Australia. Though the flags comes out on ANZAC day it was fought for britain under the union jack. Over here they represent bravery in the face of death, the young "digger" soldier stuck in a someone elses war on the other side of world, but fights on anyway (and well). This is another manifestation of the australian love of the "little man" or "battler" and really reinforces a way we see ourself and our country. Another big emphasis is their mateship, the way they stuck together, as little guys have to of course. Come to think about, it was the british officers that tend to become our surrogate "nemesis", not the turks.

I will add use three exmaples that get alot of attention and/or have their own films: Ned kelly a bushranger (Bandit) ended up hanged, Harry "Breaker" Morant (court-martailed and shot during the Boer war), Jack Simpson Kirkpatrick (a medic that saved many ANZACS using his donkey for transport) but wasnt even born here.

No great leader, warroirs or generals, just one of us.




Very similar situation in Pakistan. Our heros are all either foreingers who have some affliation with us (they lived, ruled this same land or were muslim) or we have for our own heros the men who were awarded the Nishan-e-Haider, our highest military award, men like Raja Aziz Bhatti, Lalak Jan etc.
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 10:24

Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".

I could have spent a full month making a comprehensive analysis of every country that I can think of, and then write a post which is so long that no one would read it. Instead I opted for showing 3 quick examples, which as Komnenos noted, I specifically marked as examples. Not only that, but had you read the 3 examples, you would have noted that they are not actually similar. For instance, I remarked that myths in Canadian history are very few due to the particular interests of that country and that the corresponding level of popular interest in history is very low; while Turkey was an example of exactly the opposite. I did not write these examples to assign any "blame", but rather to describe the various ways in which this phenomenon varies around the world. How exactly is this a "pathetic slur"? Is it not possible that your post is precisely an example of the sensitivity that people from a given country, used to a certain kind of national history, have when confronted with different interpretations of the same history? Is it not possible therefore that your post is a confirmation of what I wrote?

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:26
Decebal, don't get upset. Obviously everyone who has bothered to read your initial post carefully or anyone who has half a brain can understand the intention of your post and your examples.
 
Yes, reaction to your post like that is exactly what one would expect of someone who has been completely brainwashed by what he has been indoctrinated into through his education and his inability to reflect.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 01:00
The reason some people are not able to differentiate between brainwashing & history is when, a nation / community tries to appropriate the history / culture of other successfull people & install them as it's own, it has to invariably destroy the analytical capacity of it's people (insofar as the subject is concerned) & teach them to negate the very concept of oposition to their thoughts.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 00:39
Decebal,
very good post.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:47
Originally posted by Decebal

B) Turkey. Perhaps nowhere else in the world is history more important as a tool for the nation state as here. We must remember that after WW1, Turkey lost not only its status as a multinational empire, but also its Islamic tradition was discarded. Nationalism thus was essential for providing an identity to its people, and history played an important part. Great mythical heroic figures such as Alp-Arslan, Bayazid, Mehmet, Suleyman and of course Ataturk were glorified and made central to the Turkish identity. The Turks were presented as the bravest of people, creating the largest empire in history (the Ottoman Empire, with little regard for actual facts), and treating other state very fairly. This mythic version of their own history has made the Turks very passionate about their own history, as evidenced by the disproportionately large number of Turkish forumers. However, according to the rules of "the game", the creation of a national mythical history also implied the glossing over of such topics as the Armenian genocide, the history of the Kurds and the treatment of Balkan peoples. Imagine the shock of Turkish forumers coming into contact with members from Balkan countries, or Armenians, whose own national histories hads the Turks as their nemesis! All of a sudden, that idyllic version of Turkish history was confronted by diametrically opposed national histories. I've seen quite often comments of Turks completely mystified by the general hostility of other forumers (whose national histories usually presented the Turks as the nemesis and often as the root cause of all the problems in their own country). Thus, we also have a disproportionate amount of flame wars involvign Turks and other nations.

Interesting analysis.

Ataturk wanted to do away with Islam, so his only option was to unify Turks around the concept of Turkishness and nationalism, and yes Turks are quite nationalistic in generla.

But that holds equally for most Balkan nations, not only Turkey. In fact Turkey adopted nationalism far later than Greece, Bulgaria and the other Balkan states (in fact Turkey did not yet exist when these countries first seceded from the empire). Nation-building in the Balkans was a very difficult process. It involved unifiying people around the concept of a common enemy, a glorious history and a future in a greater state. One nation's founding myth, was always another's tail of misery.

An objective history in the Balkans is impossible to find. The glossing over history part is common to all - all Balkan countries are guilty of it. I haven't read any Turkish history books, so I cannot speak for what Turkish kids learn at shool, but Bulgarian history books were quite biased and never mentioned crimes comitted by Bulgarians either. I was brainwashed with Bulgarian nationalism and before I had this romantic view about Bulgaria as this self-righteous noble country which never wronged and was always wronged. I had to do my own research, in order to learn about the crimes comitted by Bulgarians. So, yes Turks are quite nationalistic, but so are most other people in the region.


Edited by bg_turk - 04-Nov-2006 at 23:49
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 05:07

There is not a single person in this thread, or on Earth for that matter, who can say that he or she knows the one and only True History of all "histories". If anyone claims to know the truth, he or she just simply wishes he or she is correct.

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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:41
Excellent post, most excellent.

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I think the Netherlands are a country with a lack of great heroes.


What about the Battle of the Golden Spurs and Willem van Gulik?
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 14:44
Good observation Decebal...You show your class one more time.
 
But, also I agree with bg_turk's observations upon "glossing over" subject.


Edited by Kapikulu - 05-Nov-2006 at 14:46
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 14:46
Good analyze indeed. Bravo Decebal.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:27
Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".



Pathetic slur against whom? Turkey? Don't be so sensitive.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 06:48
Originally posted by Dampier

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I think the Netherlands are a country with a lack of great heroes.
What about the Battle of the Golden Spurs and Willem van Gulik?
 
Hm, a little problem there: that was in Flanders... Although at that time there was little difference between Belgium and the Netherlands yet, there was also not yet any particular binding factor either (that came in the 15-16th century). So the Belgians have inherited that part as their legacy, not us. Wink And Willem of Gulik is technically a German...

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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 08:05
Aw, I thought both Netherlands and Belgium got to keep Flanders history. Ah well. Umm...Gwidje Dampiere was French wasnt he...

Uh...There must be one Dutch hero...somewhere...
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  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 09:49
 
Originally posted by bg_turk


But that holds equally for most Balkan nations, not only Turkey. In fact Turkey adopted nationalism far later than Greece, Bulgaria and the other Balkan states (in fact Turkey did not yet exist when these countries first seceded from the empire). Nation-building in the Balkans was a very difficult process. It involved unifiying people around the concept of a common enemy, a glorious history and a future in a greater state. One nation's founding myth, was always another's tail of misery.
 

Without want to flame the topic and make it one more greco-turkish conflict i would like to add that is not fault of the Greek state today's Turkey nationalism .In Greece nationalism is expelled in the contrary in Turkey is in the apogee, as I can conclude from the international press and opinions of the fellow Turkish forumers.

 

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