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National historical myths and bias on AE

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Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National historical myths and bias on AE
    Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 06:17
I agree with you, flyingzone. I really do think, however, that pure historical method is actually very rigid and not very changing at all. Of course, new historical method is discovered, but the very practice of history must, fundamentally, be as un-bias as possible. People who practice what I call "Nationalist History" are not historians as they do not seek to find out the historical truth behind events, which is what a historian should attempt to do. A historian's job is to say what happened and how it happened, and not to portray it in any other form apart from that.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 20:17

I came across the following quote, which is very sobering.

"As long as the human mind is the maker of history, the frontier between myth and fact will be disputed. Perhaps we can blame Aristotle, who said in his Poetics. 'The distinction between historian and poet is not in the one writing prose and the other verse - you might put the work of Herodotus into verse, and it would still be a species of history, it consists realy in this, that the one describes the thing that has been, and the other a kidn of thing that might be. Hence poetry is something more philosophic and of graver import than history, since its statements are of the nature rather of universals, whereas those of history are singulars.'"
 
"The myth of mythistory, it seems to me, offers historians a more enticing invitation to collegiality than they have heard in a long time. Freed of old and unnecessary parochialisms, we may think of ourselves as distillers who strive to harvest the best rye and malt form the fertile fields of facts, then filter the grains through the patterns our minds create, then age the mash into heady "mythistorical whiskey." Carelessness or adulteration in the harvest will yield an oily beverage that gives even its few loyal consumers a hangover. A spiritless soft frink, on the other hand, though made with the finest ingredients, will intoxicate no one and find few imbibers outside the positivist temperance union."
 
McDougall, W.A. (1986). "Mais ce n'est pas l'histoire!": Some thoughts on Tonybee, McNeill, and the rest of us. Journal of Mondern History, 58, 19-42.  
 
I like the word "mythistory". Wink
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 14:01

Excellent Post Decebal! You have brought up some issues on AE that I thought gravely needed adressing and have done it in a most excellent manner!

I feel that too many people will approach the complex study of history without first reading anything about Historology (the philosphy of history) or reading any of the first historians who speak a great deal about the aims and the subject of history. People need to understand that history is not just the systematic accumilation of historical fact, but also the application of historical method to that fact. It is that historical method that people need to understand, and nationalism is one of the greatest enemies of this method.

We in England seem, quite suspiciously, to chiefly (at least in GCSE and prior) study non-English areas of history, many of which show the English in a position of moral superiority, NATO against the Warsaw pact or the Allies against the Axis in WWII. This clearly shows some kind of way of avoiding our less than friendly past, as we almost completely leave anything to do with the 1700s-1800s out of the sylabus. We need to confront our past as imperialists in order to understand it and ensure that we can make sure that it is not practiced by my country again

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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 06:41
Originally posted by Chodas

Originally posted by Dampier

Aw, I thought both Netherlands and Belgium got to keep Flanders history. Ah well. Umm...Gwidje Dampiere was French wasnt he...

Uh...There must be one Dutch hero...somewhere...
Maybe Jan Jansz, also known as Murad Rais, who after being enslaved by the (banished andalusians in Sal) became admiral of their fleet and and scored victories against the Spanish and even raided England and Iceland(a deed never repeated by muslims)
 
Never heard of him... Jan Jansz is a pretty common name (John Johnson).
 
We used to have heroes. Willibrord, Boniface, Floris V of Holland, Erasmus, Karel V of Habsburg, William of Oranje-Nassau, Maurits of Oranje-Nassau, Frederik-Hendrik of Oranje-Nassau, Piet Heyn, Michiel de Ruyter, Jan Peitersz. Coen, Leeghwater, Huygens, Spinoza, Rembrandt van Rijn, Lodewijk Napoleon, Vincent van Gogh.
 
I could go on forever, we had plenty, we just don't worship them. They are almost forgotten because Dutch history on schools sucks. The older people still remember, but young people don't know and don't care.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 19:34
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I always found it ironical that in a movie about American freedom, the main roles were played by Aussies. I suppose that is a nice example of what America is about... Wink

lol!LOL
Originally posted by flyingzone

Of course, the idea of the creation of national myths is central to the thesis of Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communities". As a matter of fact, it is not simply the homogenization of the curriculum and the teaching of history that helps to create these national myths, hence boosting the idea of a "national identity" that does not really exist. Anderson shrewdly points out three other institutions of power which eventually help to shape the way in which states imagine its dominion - the census, the map, and the museum. These three institutions correspond flawlessly to the nature of the human beings a state rules, the geography of its domain, and the legitimacy of its ancestry.

Another interesting theory. Historical Museums are something that are quite rare in Australia, and when they are here they exclusively talk about early settlement. A few years ago when the National Museum of Australia was built, it took a very wholistic approach to Australian history and included perspectives about settlement from the aboriginies. One display that caught my attention was a map highlighting numerous battles fought between Aboriginies and the English. No-one ever mentions battles during settlement. I had no idea that conflict went further than farmers shooting at aboriginies before this.
Maybe three-four years ago the Prime Minister appointed Keith Windshuttle (who is a revionist "historian" who'd have you believe that Australia was uninhabited before the English came) as a director to the museum for the explicit purpose of shutting down the "Sorry politics" of the museum. The aboriginal perspectives to settlement were removed, and the traditional pro-white line was reintroduced. Freedom of Speech was yet again quashed by the government.

This definitely was an attempt to delegitimise aboriginal claims, and thereby legitimising white claims to Australia.

(As a side note, after Windshuttle was so successful enforcing government line with the museum, he was transfered to the ABC)


Originally posted by BG Turk

Ataturk wanted to do away with Islam, so his only option was to unify Turks around the concept of Turkishness and nationalism, and yes Turks are quite nationalistic in generla.

I'm no expert on Ataturk, but I do believe he had the Quran translated into turkish and distributed to every household.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 18:05
Good topic Decebal:
 
SubjectTopic: National historical myths and bias on AE
 
The "myth" part is usually not that hard to clarify.
 
The "bias" part is much harder.  It's very difficult for people to put their personal preferences aside when judging something or someone.  Generalizing only compounds the problem.  Another reason for bias is that some people just come here looking for trouble, i.e. just looking for things to dispute, instead of appreciating other members' opinions.
 
Rgds, Bill


Edited by Hellios - 06-Nov-2006 at 18:08
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  Quote Chodas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:15
Originally posted by Dampier

Aw, I thought both Netherlands and Belgium got to keep Flanders history. Ah well. Umm...Gwidje Dampiere was French wasnt he...

Uh...There must be one Dutch hero...somewhere...


Maybe Jan Jansz, also known as Murad Rais, who after being enslaved by the (banished andalusians in Sal) became admiral of their fleet and and scored victories against the Spanish and even raided England and Iceland(a deed never repeated by muslims)


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  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 09:49
 
Originally posted by bg_turk


But that holds equally for most Balkan nations, not only Turkey. In fact Turkey adopted nationalism far later than Greece, Bulgaria and the other Balkan states (in fact Turkey did not yet exist when these countries first seceded from the empire). Nation-building in the Balkans was a very difficult process. It involved unifiying people around the concept of a common enemy, a glorious history and a future in a greater state. One nation's founding myth, was always another's tail of misery.
 

Without want to flame the topic and make it one more greco-turkish conflict i would like to add that is not fault of the Greek state today's Turkey nationalism .In Greece nationalism is expelled in the contrary in Turkey is in the apogee, as I can conclude from the international press and opinions of the fellow Turkish forumers.

 

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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 08:05
Aw, I thought both Netherlands and Belgium got to keep Flanders history. Ah well. Umm...Gwidje Dampiere was French wasnt he...

Uh...There must be one Dutch hero...somewhere...
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 06:48
Originally posted by Dampier

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I think the Netherlands are a country with a lack of great heroes.
What about the Battle of the Golden Spurs and Willem van Gulik?
 
Hm, a little problem there: that was in Flanders... Although at that time there was little difference between Belgium and the Netherlands yet, there was also not yet any particular binding factor either (that came in the 15-16th century). So the Belgians have inherited that part as their legacy, not us. Wink And Willem of Gulik is technically a German...

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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:27
Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".



Pathetic slur against whom? Turkey? Don't be so sensitive.
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 14:46
Good analyze indeed. Bravo Decebal.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 14:44
Good observation Decebal...You show your class one more time.
 
But, also I agree with bg_turk's observations upon "glossing over" subject.


Edited by Kapikulu - 05-Nov-2006 at 14:46
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:41
Excellent post, most excellent.

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I think the Netherlands are a country with a lack of great heroes.


What about the Battle of the Golden Spurs and Willem van Gulik?
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 05:07

There is not a single person in this thread, or on Earth for that matter, who can say that he or she knows the one and only True History of all "histories". If anyone claims to know the truth, he or she just simply wishes he or she is correct.

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 23:47
Originally posted by Decebal

B) Turkey. Perhaps nowhere else in the world is history more important as a tool for the nation state as here. We must remember that after WW1, Turkey lost not only its status as a multinational empire, but also its Islamic tradition was discarded. Nationalism thus was essential for providing an identity to its people, and history played an important part. Great mythical heroic figures such as Alp-Arslan, Bayazid, Mehmet, Suleyman and of course Ataturk were glorified and made central to the Turkish identity. The Turks were presented as the bravest of people, creating the largest empire in history (the Ottoman Empire, with little regard for actual facts), and treating other state very fairly. This mythic version of their own history has made the Turks very passionate about their own history, as evidenced by the disproportionately large number of Turkish forumers. However, according to the rules of "the game", the creation of a national mythical history also implied the glossing over of such topics as the Armenian genocide, the history of the Kurds and the treatment of Balkan peoples. Imagine the shock of Turkish forumers coming into contact with members from Balkan countries, or Armenians, whose own national histories hads the Turks as their nemesis! All of a sudden, that idyllic version of Turkish history was confronted by diametrically opposed national histories. I've seen quite often comments of Turks completely mystified by the general hostility of other forumers (whose national histories usually presented the Turks as the nemesis and often as the root cause of all the problems in their own country). Thus, we also have a disproportionate amount of flame wars involvign Turks and other nations.

Interesting analysis.

Ataturk wanted to do away with Islam, so his only option was to unify Turks around the concept of Turkishness and nationalism, and yes Turks are quite nationalistic in generla.

But that holds equally for most Balkan nations, not only Turkey. In fact Turkey adopted nationalism far later than Greece, Bulgaria and the other Balkan states (in fact Turkey did not yet exist when these countries first seceded from the empire). Nation-building in the Balkans was a very difficult process. It involved unifiying people around the concept of a common enemy, a glorious history and a future in a greater state. One nation's founding myth, was always another's tail of misery.

An objective history in the Balkans is impossible to find. The glossing over history part is common to all - all Balkan countries are guilty of it. I haven't read any Turkish history books, so I cannot speak for what Turkish kids learn at shool, but Bulgarian history books were quite biased and never mentioned crimes comitted by Bulgarians either. I was brainwashed with Bulgarian nationalism and before I had this romantic view about Bulgaria as this self-righteous noble country which never wronged and was always wronged. I had to do my own research, in order to learn about the crimes comitted by Bulgarians. So, yes Turks are quite nationalistic, but so are most other people in the region.


Edited by bg_turk - 04-Nov-2006 at 23:49
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 00:39
Decebal,
very good post.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 01:00
The reason some people are not able to differentiate between brainwashing & history is when, a nation / community tries to appropriate the history / culture of other successfull people & install them as it's own, it has to invariably destroy the analytical capacity of it's people (insofar as the subject is concerned) & teach them to negate the very concept of oposition to their thoughts.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 11:26
Decebal, don't get upset. Obviously everyone who has bothered to read your initial post carefully or anyone who has half a brain can understand the intention of your post and your examples.
 
Yes, reaction to your post like that is exactly what one would expect of someone who has been completely brainwashed by what he has been indoctrinated into through his education and his inability to reflect.
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 10:24

Originally posted by Bulldog

Singling out three countries for your analyses is extremely bias and places all blame on them while practically every country revolves around similar lines.

A pathetic slur, I'd expect more from an "Admin".

I could have spent a full month making a comprehensive analysis of every country that I can think of, and then write a post which is so long that no one would read it. Instead I opted for showing 3 quick examples, which as Komnenos noted, I specifically marked as examples. Not only that, but had you read the 3 examples, you would have noted that they are not actually similar. For instance, I remarked that myths in Canadian history are very few due to the particular interests of that country and that the corresponding level of popular interest in history is very low; while Turkey was an example of exactly the opposite. I did not write these examples to assign any "blame", but rather to describe the various ways in which this phenomenon varies around the world. How exactly is this a "pathetic slur"? Is it not possible that your post is precisely an example of the sensitivity that people from a given country, used to a certain kind of national history, have when confronted with different interpretations of the same history? Is it not possible therefore that your post is a confirmation of what I wrote?

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