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Bulldog
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Topic: The flaws of the DNA Nationalists Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:09 |
On another thread, "Zagros" gave a link to "National Geographics" DNA tracing page.
Looking at it you soon realise how ridiculous our ideals of "Nationhood"-"Ethnicity" and so on are.
The earliest continuous nations are at most a few thousad years old.
Taking into account humans have been around for over 100,000 years our notions of nation are pretty insignificant in these respects.
If we've been around for 100,000 years and from the chart of human migrations, our ancestors were migrating from one area to another, south to north, east to west and vica-versa, mixing, joining tribes, fighting, loving and so on.
So seen as though they mixed for 95,000 years the ideas of a Nation being determined by "race" or "DNA" seems pretty ridiculous
We can share DNA from people practically on the other side of the world. If we individually traced our ansectors back a thousand generations we could be from anywhere.
So "Nationhood" "ethnicity" is practically mainly cultural. Were all distant cousins and have so many cousins some of us have forgot were actually all one family This makes those who try to determine nations simply by "looks" look silly.
Also I have a question.
How long does it take for humans to adapt to a geographical area? like having the skin darken or lighten, lighter hair darker hair, rounder eyes more slanted eyes and so on?
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Menumorut
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Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:27 |
At least, Nationalism is an afirmation.
Anti-nationalism is a negation.
I prefer the first.
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perikles
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 02:56 |
There is searches commited (scinetists took dna from 100 women across the world almost from every tribe)that shows that all the women have 4 same ancestors. And so they suppose that we all come from the same ancestor.
This is wrong. Because the science has not been so advance yet to decode the full DNA. Also there are mutations in the centuries that have change the dna. So they assuming many things. This occurs to all the researches.
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Samos national guard.
260 days left.
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Leonidas
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 05:02 |
most of our DNA come from the people that have been living in our "homelands" way before our language/identity was established.
there are (one maybe two) good threads on the andolians/turks in this forum with alot of genetic studies discussed, if your intersted bulldog.
Edited by Leonidas - 16-Oct-2006 at 05:03
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Bulldog
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 05:08 |
Its all nonsense though, trying to determine people's "nationhood"/"ethnicity" by DNA is flawed.
There are so many overlaps, our ancestors didn't stay in one place, they migrated East then West then all over the place and kept migrating so really we've all got the same ancestors who walked the Earth, mixed alot and after a while settled, then migrated again etc etc
So any nation can say were descended to everyone, there are traces of us in people on the other side of the world as humans travelled all across the world.
What good are Genetic traces for Nations? thousands of years ago "A" may have somewhere along the line mixed with someone from "B" and "B" with "X" and so on in addition what is say "B" was subjugated to "A" and was assimilated and mixed into "A" there would still be "B" in "A" yet it wouldn't matter as it was a "cultural" act etc etc
It all starts getting confusing.
Edited by Bulldog - 16-Oct-2006 at 05:11
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Leonidas
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 05:29 |
well no nationhood can be detirmed by genetics thats the beauty of it, people do try, but they wont get past a pie chart.
as you said, its a culture more than blood lines that dertimines your nationality.
Edited by Leonidas - 16-Oct-2006 at 05:29
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 06:39 |
It does seem to be a big sham. It's better to go by the culture & folflore rather than by DNA.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Zagros
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 09:21 |
The flaws of "simple" nationalists are no less blatant and I am sure if DNA supported, which it sometimes does, in any way their own views then they would whole heartedly champion it. I remember the Anatolian bump thread... very amusing.
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Afsar Beghi
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:07 |
Maybe over 10 years they've done enough research about DNA. But for now I will go with the cultural thing to determine ethnicity
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Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur,
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Olen lr kalan sağlar bizimdir!
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flyingzone
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:15 |
Originally posted by Menumorut
At least, Nationalism is an afirmation.
Anti-nationalism is a negation.
I prefer the first. |
That's so idiotic.
Racism is the "affirmation" of one race's superiority over another. Is it a good thing? Is "negating" racism a bad thing?
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Gun Powder Ma
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:49 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
How long does it take for humans to adapt to a geographical area? like having the skin darken or lighten, lighter hair darker hair, rounder eyes more slanted eyes and so on? |
Take a look at the Amerindians. After 12,000 years of separation from their cousins in north-eastern Asia, they already look pretty different. Also, recently some researchers came up with the news that blonde hair developed rather rapidly among northern Europeans.
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Anton
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 14:57 |
Bulldog, Lisenko would be glad to read your posts :) Do not mix molecular biology and nationalism. Genetics gives you clear result which can be checked by other scientists. History sometimes is justs different interpretation of facts known ages ago. If a historian tells that nation A died before nation B arrived at place C and on the other hand nucleotide sequences specific for nation A are found in descendants of nation B then the historian is wrong.
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Menumorut
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 15:52 |
Racism is the "affirmation" of one race's superiority over another. Is it a good thing? Is "negating" racism a bad thing? |
Nationalism is an ideology that holds that a nation is the fundamental unit for human social life, and takes precedence over any other social and political principles. (Wikipedia)
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shinai
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 17:44 |
Anton says:
"Bulldog, Lisenko would be glad to read your posts :) Do not mix molecular biology and nationalism. Genetics gives you clear result which can be checked by other scientists. History sometimes is justs different interpretation of facts known ages ago. If a historian tells that nation A died before nation B arrived at place C and on the other hand nucleotide sequences specific for nation A are found in descendants of nation B then the historian is wrong."
I gusse the DNA results by our science at the moment is to messed up , we need to wait more.
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Anton
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:24 |
Originally posted by shinai
I gusse the DNA results by our science at the moment is to messed up , we need to wait more. |
You are right to some extent. But the good thing with gene flow studies is that it is independent on historical data. Whereas sciences like archeology and linguistic use historical data and thus are dependent.
As for the mess, it is not a mess it is just inability to fit current historical imaginations to these data. This is my humble opinion.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 19:45 |
Menumorut, I am not equating nationalism with racism (even though in the case of ultranationalism, they are almost synonymous). I am challenging your "logic" or lack of it. You argue that you prefer nationalism to anti-nationalism because the latter "negates" while the former "affirms." My problem with this assertion is that not everything that "affirms" is good, and not everything "negates" is bad.
It is that simple. Got it?
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Menumorut
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 03:49 |
I am challenging your "logic" or lack of it. You argue that you prefer nationalism to anti-nationalism because the latter "negates" while the former "affirms." My problem with this assertion is that not everything that "affirms" is good, and not everything "negates" is bad. |
Sorry, I was inexactly speaking.
I wanted to say that anti-nationalist is actualy anti-cultural movement, who disolute the national cultures.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:43 |
This would mean that Nation and Culture are the same, or at least inseperable. This is not so.
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akritas
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:51 |
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi
Maybe over 10 years they've done enough research about DNA. But for now I will go with the cultural thing to determine ethnicity |
well said I support the Cultural Heritage.The blood never determine ethinicty and origin.
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 05:54 |
I wanted to say that anti-nationalist is actualy anti-cultural movement, who disolute the national cultures. |
Cultures come and go, better say they mutate continuously. Why a national culture is superior (preferable) to other ("anti-national") cultural expressions?
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