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Democracy,compatible with huge population

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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Democracy,compatible with huge population
    Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 15:47
The late 19th and early 20th centuries were full of economic crashes. This system did not work, this is why after 1929 regulations were put in place to prevent such economic crashes and America thrived for decades until Reagan undid everything, and guess what? We've gone back to those horrific days of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Let me ask you this, would you rather live in the United States between 1945 and 1980 (our economy thrived) or in the United States between 1890-1929 (uncertain, ever changing, high unemployment, economic vulnerability)?

Prior to regulations, there were many economic crashes and depressions:

1873-1879
1893
1896
1901
1907-1908
1920-1921
1929-1938/41 (the worst one, known as the Great Depression)

You really want to go back to those days?

Now, since regulations were put in place, there have been far fewer economic crashes, however, after the Republicans once again repealed much of the regulations, we had the following crashes:

1987
1989
2007-2009



Edited by TheGreatSimba - 12-Jul-2010 at 16:01
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 16:38
TGS wrote above;
Do "You really want to go back to those days?"

Yes, sir! It makes everyone more honest!
And these events created great wealth, that spread to everyone!"

It can even happen again? If the Government gets its foot off of our necks?

Edited by opuslola - 12-Jul-2010 at 16:40
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 17:50
Originally posted by opuslola


Do "You really want to go back to those days?"

Yes, sir! It makes everyone more honest!
And these events created great wealth, that spread to everyone!"


Now you're just being ridiculous. It did not make everyone wealthy, quite the opposite, it made a few rich and it put everyones lives in the hands of those few wealthy people.

Originally posted by opuslola


It can even happen again? If the Government gets its foot off of our necks?


You need to learn your American history, a little bit about economics, and a lot about politics. Nothing you are saying is based in any facts whatsoever, its information you conjured up in your head and now you actually believe it.




Edited by TheGreatSimba - 13-Jul-2010 at 08:03
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 13:20
YES, your last cartoon face is actually a very good rendition of ME!

Although, I just wish that the artist had placed a large weapon within my hands!

Just which character above is YOU?

Edited by opuslola - 13-Jul-2010 at 13:22
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 14:44
Well then, start rallying your fellow Tea Partiers and tell them to withdraw every sent of aid that Mississippi gets from the government.

Congratulations, I hope you can survive without electricity, paved roads, running water, education, law enforcement, fire fighters, or jobs (to name a few things you wouldnt have anymore).

Seriously, if you claim you're a patriot and you love this country, start by first understanding its history. Honestly, I dont think you care about this country or other Americans, you simply care about yourself, and this is something all Tea Partiers have in common.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 13-Jul-2010 at 14:46
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 15:11
TGS, already, after the great pains caused by Hurricane Katrina, we now live upon and depend upon dirt roads, that look very similar to what we now see in Iraq, etc.!

By the way, if your candidate is doing so well, then why this?

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/13/nearly-6-in-10-lack-confidence-in-obama-to-make-right-decisions/?icid=main|hp-desktop|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2010%2F07%2F13%2Fnearly-6-in-10-lack-confidence-in-obama-to-make-right-decisions%2F

You always just fail to have enough information to make a real examanination of the real facts!

Typical of "progressives!"

Hey, come on down, and grab a "pooper scooper!", and help us remove the "tar babies" that have finally made their way to our shores!

You only have to work about ten to twenty minutes per hour! Then you are given your "break!"

We supposedly have about 3,500 of these workers here, making the minimum of $12.50 per hour, plus free meals, etc.!

I really wonder just how many we would have if they had to pass a "piss test?"

Would you?

Pardon me while I take a good drink from my glass of Iced Tea?

Edited by opuslola - 13-Jul-2010 at 15:14
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 15:46
Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, already, after the great pains caused by Hurricane Katrina, we now live upon and depend upon dirt roads, that look very similar to what we now see in Iraq, etc.!


Well go out there and fix them, what are you waiting for? Looks like you got your dream come true, the government isnt involved!LOL

Originally posted by opuslola


By the way, if your candidate is doing so well, then why this?

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/13/nearly-6-in-10-lack-confidence-in-obama-to-make-right-decisions/?icid=main|hp-desktop|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2010%2F07%2F13%2Fnearly-6-in-10-lack-confidence-in-obama-to-make-right-decisions%2F

You always just fail to have enough information to make a real examanination of the real facts!


I do know about that. As I've mentioned many times before, I dont get my information from just one source, I'm actually aware of things coming from both sides of the spectrum.

As for that, I dont doubt it, Fox News has been very good and spreading propaganda and the Republican Party has been very good at preventing anything from getting done.

Whats important is what happens in November, and from the looks of it, the Republican party will pick up a couple seats but Dems will still have majority.

Recent polls such as the one you posted  (did you even read that article?), have also shown that people trust the Republican Party even less than the Democratic Party. Within the same article you posted, 73 percent of Americans do not trust the Republican Party.

Please, learn from the past, I dont talk out of my ass, and, out of fear of looking stupid, I make sure that I am as informed as I possibly can be. You should try the same, and dont accuse me of "not knowing".

Originally posted by opuslola


Typical of "progressives!"


Every time you say the pledge of allegiance, remember that it was written by a progressive socialist.Wink Then, when you put your right hand over your heart and look at the flag, remember that it was progressives who brought about the changes which turned this nation into the richest, democratic, and powerful society on earth.


Originally posted by opuslola


Hey, come on down, and grab a "pooper scooper!", and help us remove the "tar babies" that have finally made their way to our shores!


Nope, thats you're problem, why should I help you?

Originally posted by opuslola


You only have to work about ten to twenty minutes per hour! Then you are given your "break!"


Hey, maybe you can be around toxic waste for longer and not be affected, you should get out there and help clean up the beach behind your house.

Originally posted by opuslola


We supposedly have about 3,500 of these workers here, making the minimum of $12.50 per hour, plus free meals, etc.!


Well, I'm glad BP is paying for something.

Originally posted by opuslola


I really wonder just how many we would have if they had to pass a "piss test?"

Would you?


Probably none, most Americans do smoke or have smoked marijuana. Maybe its time we legalized it?

Originally posted by opuslola


Pardon me while I take a good drink from my glass of Iced Tea?


Becareful, it turns out there is so much toxic waste down in the south that in some parts the drinking water contains natural gas...I hope thats not home made ice tea.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 13-Jul-2010 at 15:54
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 17:57
Have you ever looked up the word "natural?"

Pardon me I have to F-rt!" A natural gas!
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 18:32
Really, no comment on how the same article/poll which says that 57% of Americans some what trust or not at all trust Obama, also says that 73% of Americans somewhat/not at all trust the Republicans?

Really? Funny how when you post something without reading it, it can come back to bite you in the ass huh?


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 13-Jul-2010 at 18:32
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 07:56
ClapOh my goodness, someone who said Reagan made a mess of things.Clap  That man lied to us when he said we did not need to conserve.  I don't know if he intended to lie, or if he was just being an honest actor, who really didn't know enough to lead our nation.  

Our airline industry is a mess, thanks to his deregulations.  The whole point of government is to regulate things, so they continue to function smoothly, and the people are protected.   The history of laisez-faire economics in England is a horror story of child abuse.  Human beings must be educated and must be regulated, because they do very bad things if they are not.  

Most important, I want to say democracy is away of life.  I have heard China is doing everything with group decisions, far more so than US.  The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.  While the US used England's autocratic model for industry, and is very autocratic.  

Democracy is a culture, and our schools stopped transmitting that culture in 1958.  I am very concern about the future of the US, because it is no longer known that, democracy is away of life, and government is just one part of that way of live.    When everyone argues property rights, and none defend democratic principles, how long can there be a functioning democracy?  




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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 16:06
I would suggest that all of you read Glenn Beck!

Carol, you have disappointed me!

I shall now consider you as a male and call you Karol!

http://mail.aol.com/32319-111/aol-1/en-us/Suite.aspx

Just touch all of the highlited places!

This is "truth!"

Take is as a method of cleansing your bowels!

The minor Simba seems to need this cleansing more than most?

Edited by opuslola - 26-Jul-2010 at 16:26
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 12:23

The following quotes really seemed to fit with the title of this thread, but not with the question of regulation as it was presented.  As stated, I am in favor of  regulations.  I believe this is what government is all about.  The universe exist because of controlling forces makes this possible, and a huge progressive economy is possible only with regulating forces.  We just witnessed what happens when there is not adequate regulations.  However,  I love this Smile,  God, the controlling force of the universe, left a lot room for things to go their own way.   Like the universe, we must have fundamental regulations, but we must not over control.  

The size of the population can increase our liberty as long as differences can be maintained.  However, as Tocqueville points out,  our democracy can turn into the most powerful tyranny the world has ever known, when centeralized government becomes  centralized administration.   I so much like this quote from Aldous Huxley,  

In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely.  

Our Homeland Security should scare the shit out of us, because of its powers of central administration reaching too far into our individual lives.  I think we take our democracy with liberty for granted.  When my grandchildren were made wards of state, I learned more about tyranny than I knew there was learn, and this is the main reason I write, and I write, and I write.  It is why I researched education, and why I might seem preachy.   I take Tocqueville's warning very seriously.  The following from his 1835 book "Democracy in America".  

 http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch16.htm

ABSENCE OF CENTRALIZED ADMINISTRATION. The national majority does not pretend to do everything--Is obliged to employ the town and county magistrates to execute its sovereign will.

I HAVE already pointed out the distinction between a centralized government and a centralized administration. The former exists in America, but the latter is nearly unknown there. If the directing power of the American communities had both these instruments of government at is disposal and united the habit of executing its commands to the right of commanding; if, after having established the general principles of government, it descended to the details of their application; and if, having regulated the great interests of the country, it could descend to the circle of individual interests, freedom would soon be banished from the New World.

But in the United States the majority, which so frequently displays the tastes and the propensities of a despot, is still destitute of the most perfect instruments of tyranny.

In the American republics the central government has never as yet busied itself except with a small number of objects, sufficiently prominent to attract its attention. The secondary affairs of society have never been regulated by its authority; and nothing has hitherto betrayed its desire of even interfering in them. The majority has become more and more absolute, but has not increased the prerogatives of the central government; those great prerogatives have been confined to a certain sphere; and although the despotism of the majority may be galling upon one point, it cannot be said to extend to all. However the predominant party in the nation may be carried away by its passions, however ardent it may be in the pursuit of its projects, it cannot oblige all the citizens to comply with its desires in the same manner and at the same time throughout the country. When the central government which represents that majority has issued a decree, it must entrust the execution of its will to agents over whom it frequently has no control and whom it cannot perpetually direct. The townships, municipal bodies, and counties form so many concealed breakwaters, which check or part the tide of popular determination. If an oppressive law were passed, liberty would still be protected by the mode of executing that law; the majority cannot descend to the details and what may be called the puerilities of administrative tyranny. It does not even imagine that it can do so, for it has not a full consciousness of its authority. It knows only the extent of its natural powers, but is unacquainted with the art of increasing them.

This point deserves attention; for if a democratic republic, similar to that of the United States, were ever founded in a country where the power of one man had previously established a centralized administration and had sunk it deep into the habits and the laws of the people, I do not hesitate to assert that in such a republic a more insufferable despotism would prevail than in any of the absolute monarchies of Europe; or, indeed, than any that could be found on this side of Asia.

If we want liberty we have to pay more attention to the importance of education.  




Edited by Carol - 27-Jul-2010 at 13:05
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  Quote Van_Möck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 15:56
Originally posted by Carol

ClapOh my goodness, someone who said Reagan made a mess of things.Clap  That man lied to us when he said we did not need to conserve.  I don't know if he intended to lie, or if he was just being an honest actor, who really didn't know enough to lead our nation.  

Our airline industry is a mess, thanks to his deregulations.  The whole point of government is to regulate things, so they continue to function smoothly, and the people are protected.   The history of laisez-faire economics in England is a horror story of child abuse.  Human beings must be educated and must be regulated, because they do very bad things if they are not.  

Most important, I want to say democracy is away of life.  I have heard China is doing everything with group decisions, far more so than US.  The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.  While the US used England's autocratic model for industry, and is very autocratic.  

Democracy is a culture, and our schools stopped transmitting that culture in 1958.  I am very concern about the future of the US, because it is no longer known that, democracy is away of life, and government is just one part of that way of live.    When everyone argues property rights, and none defend democratic principles, how long can there be a functioning democracy?  






Im actually really tired at the moment, but I just can't understand how anyone could honestly support this claim. Do you actually mean the United States of America are more autocratic than the Soviet Union has been? Or were you just carried away by your enthusiasm for critisizing the USA?

To me it seems very difficult to prove your claim..

Maybe you simply have more information than me, but from what I know praising the Soviet Union for its approach to democracy is not even a way of rethoric provocation, it only discredits yourself.


The growing frustration for the status quo seems to support some romantic imaginations and illusions of communism. I see this in germany, where even in school the scale of the atrocities and inner contradictions of communism are only taught superficially ( of course in great contrast to the teaching of the situation of national socialist germany). And I can imagine that it is appealing to Americans of today to provocate the "conservative" side with supposed fancy for the communist ideals.

For anyone who really thinks he would enjoy living with dear misunderstood uncle Stalin:
Better have a look at some "capitalist racist reactionary western propaganda"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union

Hey! Maybe it was just a misunderstanding and Stalin didn't mean killing all these people after all? Yes, yes, its only the evil capitalists who want to make us believe he did!


(However Im sorry if I misread your post)
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 17:26
Originally posted by Van_Möck


Originally posted by Carol

ClapOh my goodness, someone who said Reagan made a mess of things.Clap  That man lied to us when he said we did not need to conserve.  I don't know if he intended to lie, or if he was just being an honest actor, who really didn't know enough to lead our nation.  
Our airline industry is a mess, thanks to his deregulations.  The whole point of government is to regulate things, so they continue to function smoothly, and the people are protected.   The history of laisez-faire economics in England is a horror story of child abuse.  Human beings must be educated and must be regulated, because they do very bad things if they are not.  
Most important, I want to say democracy is away of life.  I have heard China is doing everything with group decisions, far more so than US.  The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.  While the US used England's autocratic model for industry, and is very autocratic.  
Democracy is a culture, and our schools stopped transmitting that culture in 1958.  I am very concern about the future of the US, because it is no longer known that, democracy is away of life, and government is just one part of that way of live.    When everyone argues property rights, and none defend democratic principles, how long can there be a functioning democracy?  
Im actually really tired at the moment, but I just can't understand how anyone could honestly support this claim. Do you actually mean the United States of America are more autocratic than the Soviet Union has been? Or were you just carried away by your enthusiasm for critisizing the USA?To me it seems very difficult to prove your claim..Maybe you simply have more information than me, but from what I know praising the Soviet Union for its approach to democracy is not even a way of rethoric provocation, it only discredits yourself.The growing frustration for the status quo seems to support some romantic imaginations and illusions of communism. I see this in germany, where even in school the scale of the atrocities and inner contradictions of communism are only taught superficially ( of course in great contrast to the teaching of the situation of national socialist germany). And I can imagine that it is appealing to Americans of today to provocate the "conservative" side with supposed fancy for the communist ideals.For anyone who really thinks he would enjoy living with dear misunderstood uncle Stalin:Better have a look at some "capitalist racist reactionary western propaganda"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_UnionHey! Maybe it was just a misunderstanding and Stalin didn't mean killing all these people after all? Yes, yes, its only the evil capitalists who want to make us believe he did!(However Im sorry if I misread your post)


Van, I am with you on this! Does not Carol not know that the USA is not a Democracy? Democracy was something to be avoided centuries in the past! Do you, Carol, not know that the USA is a Representative Democracy? Pure democracy is irresponsible, and stupid!
Come on! IN the USSR, China, etc., lets just get the people together and we will vote on the number of hours we will work in a day, week, month, etc.?

Then we will vote on how much we will be paid, and then we will vote on how much vacation we will need, and then we will vote on the price of homes or rent, and then the price of automobiles, or bus tickets, or bicyles, etc.?

Oh! Did I mention Medical care costs, or child care costs, or food costs, etc.?

Get real Carol or move!

Most Americans, and a lot of Europeans and Asians have moved with their feet to places more agreeble than the "fantasy society" you conceive!

If you find it, go, and don't tell us where!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 20:46
Originally posted by Van_Möck

Originally posted by Carol

ClapOh my goodness, someone who said Reagan made a mess of things.Clap  That man lied to us when he said we did not need to conserve.  I don't know if he intended to lie, or if he was just being an honest actor, who really didn't know enough to lead our nation.  

Our airline industry is a mess, thanks to his deregulations.  The whole point of government is to regulate things, so they continue to function smoothly, and the people are protected.   The history of laisez-faire economics in England is a horror story of child abuse.  Human beings must be educated and must be regulated, because they do very bad things if they are not.  

Most important, I want to say democracy is away of life.  I have heard China is doing everything with group decisions, far more so than US.  The USSR was democratic, and our media made a mess of things by making us believe communism is not democracy.  While the US used England's autocratic model for industry, and is very autocratic.  

Democracy is a culture, and our schools stopped transmitting that culture in 1958.  I am very concern about the future of the US, because it is no longer known that, democracy is away of life, and government is just one part of that way of live.    When everyone argues property rights, and none defend democratic principles, how long can there be a functioning democracy?  






Im actually really tired at the moment, but I just can't understand how anyone could honestly support this claim. Do you actually mean the United States of America are more autocratic than the Soviet Union has been? Or were you just carried away by your enthusiasm for critisizing the USA?

To me it seems very difficult to prove your claim..

Maybe you simply have more information than me, but from what I know praising the Soviet Union for its approach to democracy is not even a way of rethoric provocation, it only discredits yourself.


The growing frustration for the status quo seems to support some romantic imaginations and illusions of communism. I see this in germany, where even in school the scale of the atrocities and inner contradictions of communism are only taught superficially ( of course in great contrast to the teaching of the situation of national socialist germany). And I can imagine that it is appealing to Americans of today to provocate the "conservative" side with supposed fancy for the communist ideals.

For anyone who really thinks he would enjoy living with dear misunderstood uncle Stalin:
Better have a look at some "capitalist racist reactionary western propaganda"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union

Hey! Maybe it was just a misunderstanding and Stalin didn't mean killing all these people after all? Yes, yes, its only the evil capitalists who want to make us believe he did!


(However Im sorry if I misread your post)

It is my understanding socialism, fascism and communism are all democracies.   The opposite of democracy is autocracy, not communism.   All the governments are a mix of autocratic and democratic control.  What separates them is different economic ideology.  The different government forms are varying degrees of government control of industry.   

Only two things are required for fascism, experience with democracy and experience with industry.  Fascism began in Italy as a labor movement, right?  This made industry very active in government and the result of industry getting very active government, was laws favoring industry, not the laborers.   When Bismark took control of Germany, its political unit was the social democrats, right?
Hitler picked up Fascism from Italy, right?  He was so successful at turning the German economic around, everyone thought fascism was the cure to economic collapse and poverty.  

At the time of the Great Depression, Deming attempt to get industry in the US to switch from the autocratic model to the democratic model, right?  As we know our industry remained autocratic, so when the US was Americanizing Japan, Deming took the democratic model to Japan, and they accepted it and produced to kick our asses in competition for world markets.  In the US we love to believe our great life is the result of democracy, but we deny Japan's great success was the result of democracy.  

Rather than becoming more democratic, we became more autocratic.  That is believing Fascism is the answer to economic problems, the federal government increased its control of industry.  We have private property controlled by the federal government.  That is autocracy controlled by a bigger autocratic.  That is fascism.   It doesn't go as far as communism, but neither is it democracy where the power rest in the hands in the hands of the people.  It is democracy where powers have shifted from the people to the government.  This is government with very strong industrial participation.   I question how well the average citizen is benefiting from this.  Seems to me, too many of laws benefit industry at the expense of the people.  



Edited by Carol - 27-Jul-2010 at 22:27
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  Quote Van_Möck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2010 at 07:22
Originally posted by Carol


It is my understanding socialism, fascism and communism are all democracies.   The opposite of democracy is autocracy, not communism.   All the governments are a mix of autocratic and democratic control.  What separates them is different economic ideology.  The different government forms are varying degrees of government control of industry.   

Only two things are required for fascism, experience with democracy and experience with industry.  Fascism began in Italy as a labor movement, right?  This made industry very active in government and the result of industry getting very active government, was laws favoring industry, not the laborers.   When Bismark took control of Germany, its political unit was the social democrats, right?
Hitler picked up Fascism from Italy, right?  He was so successful at turning the German economic around, everyone thought fascism was the cure to economic collapse and poverty.  

At the time of the Great Depression, Deming attempt to get industry in the US to switch from the autocratic model to the democratic model, right?  As we know our industry remained autocratic, so when the US was Americanizing Japan, Deming took the democratic model to Japan, and they accepted it and produced to kick our asses in competition for world markets.  In the US we love to believe our great life is the result of democracy, but we deny Japan's great success was the result of democracy.  

Rather than becoming more democratic, we became more autocratic.  That is believing Fascism is the answer to economic problems, the federal government increased its control of industry.  We have private property controlled by the federal government.  That is autocracy controlled by a bigger autocratic.  That is fascism.   It doesn't go as far as communism, but neither is it democracy where the power rest in the hands in the hands of the people.  It is democracy where powers have shifted from the people to the government.  This is government with very strong industrial participation.   I question how well the average citizen is benefiting from this.  Seems to me, too many of laws benefit industry at the expense of the people.  



Its difficult to follow your logic..
So you define the regulation of the economy by an elected government as autocracy?

And where is the connection to Bismarck?

And do you see "economic" socialism, fascism or communism as an alternative to the current system, or are you just using them as examples?

Maybe you also think of socialism as in the scandinavian welfare states, whereas I think of
the German Democratic Republic (DDR).

And last, how do "japanese economic democracy" and "american economic supposed democracy" differ? Is there simply less government control in Japan?


Edited by Van_Möck - 28-Jul-2010 at 07:24
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2010 at 11:15
I was hoping to find a link that would simplify things and that does not seem possible.  Everyone who writes of this stuff seems to use different terms, and use terms differently.  

Once upon a time we defined the divisions of economics as capitalism, socialism, fascism, or communism.  All the countries with these different economic systems had democracy.   

Nothing is going to make sense without understanding the difference between autocracy and democracy, and then the various blends.   An autocracy is authority over the people.  Democracy gives power to the people.   All nations are a combination of both.  Even dictatorships today, have allowed citizens to have a degree of democracy.   

US industry was modeled after England's autocracy.  That means a hierarchy of authority, over the people, and this is opposed to democracy.  One of the big motivations for revolution, was fear the king would impose the church of England on everyone.  The colonist in the north, originally outside the king's domain, and were opposed to the church's hierarchy of authority.   The US entered WWI crying, "Democracy and autocracy can not co exist", in denial that it's industry is autocrat.  Of course things are going to be confusing, because all of this is nuts!  Citizens of the US have not dealt well with their reality, but operate in a state of denial.     Personally, I think this  makes the US schizoid.  But there are some citizens who do understand US industry is autocratic and  I hope one of them helps explain the confusion.   

Deming took the democratic model to Japan, and Japan rebuilt its industry using the democratic model.   I question if the US might not be much better than it is if its industry also used the democratic model.   

For sure autocratic industry lead to autocratic families and we now call these dysfunctional families.  Democratic industry would lead to democratic families and this for sure would be a huge improvement, in human relationships.   We can observe this difference in the class differences.  The upper class encourages children to participate in family discussions, and to offer new ideas, and to be self directed.  They are preparing their children to be leaders.  This is why many people being business owners, as opposed to the masses working for a huge industry is, so important.   The difference is not so much income, but "who is boss".   When you own your own business, you are the boss and enjoy all the freedom and responsibility of a democratic citizen.  Smile   However- Cry ...

If you are an employee in autocratic industry, yours is not to question why, but to do or die.  That is, as an employee you are a subordinate.  For survival reasons you will teach your children to follow orders without question, and to keep their mouths shut, because these children are being prepared to be subordinates.   (may be not you personally, but you get the survival training for leaders and subordinates is different, right?)  Subordinates do not enjoy the experience of democracy on the job.  They do not have personal power and freedom, but must obey, and they live in fear of displeasing those above them.  To bring this home, that is to explain things so we can relate to them in a shared experience,  forums such as this one, are privately owned.  Everyone agrees the right of this ownership is to be autocratic, with complete power to say what will happen and what will not happen.  There are no protections for posters, who can be banned whenever an owner decides to do so.  This is how autocratic industry functions.   So in the US our life experience is far more autocratic than democratic.   Even if you own the business or the forum, you are more apt to do things autocratically than democratically.   This reality really makes defending democracy around world a bit schizoid or at least hypocritical.   


Edited by Carol - 28-Jul-2010 at 11:29
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  Quote Van_Möck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2010 at 13:50
Originally posted by Carol

I was hoping to find a link that would simplify things and that does not seem possible.  Everyone who writes of this stuff seems to use different terms, and use terms differently.  

Once upon a time we defined the divisions of economics as capitalism, socialism, fascism, or communism.  All the countries with these different economic systems had democracy.   

Nothing is going to make sense without understanding the difference between autocracy and democracy, and then the various blends.   An autocracy is authority over the people.  Democracy gives power to the people.   All nations are a combination of both.  Even dictatorships today, have allowed citizens to have a degree of democracy.   

US industry was modeled after England's autocracy.  That means a hierarchy of authority, over the people, and this is opposed to democracy.  One of the big motivations for revolution, was fear the king would impose the church of England on everyone.  The colonist in the north, originally outside the king's domain, and were opposed to the church's hierarchy of authority.   The US entered WWI crying, "Democracy and autocracy can not co exist", in denial that it's industry is autocrat.  Of course things are going to be confusing, because all of this is nuts!  Citizens of the US have not dealt well with their reality, but operate in a state of denial.     Personally, I think this  makes the US schizoid.  But there are some citizens who do understand US industry is autocratic and  I hope one of them helps explain the confusion.   

Deming took the democratic model to Japan, and Japan rebuilt its industry using the democratic model.   I question if the US might not be much better than it is if its industry also used the democratic model.   

For sure autocratic industry lead to autocratic families and we now call these dysfunctional families.  Democratic industry would lead to democratic families and this for sure would be a huge improvement, in human relationships.   We can observe this difference in the class differences.  The upper class encourages children to participate in family discussions, and to offer new ideas, and to be self directed.  They are preparing their children to be leaders.  This is why many people being business owners, as opposed to the masses working for a huge industry is, so important.   The difference is not so much income, but "who is boss".   When you own your own business, you are the boss and enjoy all the freedom and responsibility of a democratic citizen.  Smile   However- Cry ...

If you are an employee in autocratic industry, yours is not to question why, but to do or die.  That is, as an employee you are a subordinate.  For survival reasons you will teach your children to follow orders without question, and to keep their mouths shut, because these children are being prepared to be subordinates.   (may be not you personally, but you get the survival training for leaders and subordinates is different, right?)  Subordinates do not enjoy the experience of democracy on the job.  They do not have personal power and freedom, but must obey, and they live in fear of displeasing those above them.  To bring this home, that is to explain things so we can relate to them in a shared experience,  forums such as this one, are privately owned.  Everyone agrees the right of this ownership is to be autocratic, with complete power to say what will happen and what will not happen.  There are no protections for posters, who can be banned whenever an owner decides to do so.  This is how autocratic industry functions.   So in the US our life experience is far more autocratic than democratic.   Even if you own the business or the forum, you are more apt to do things autocratically than democratically.   This reality really makes defending democracy around world a bit schizoid or at least hypocritical.   


If we did things the soviet way on this forum I would probably be appointed a moderator by, for example, opuslola for disagreeing with your opinion. Then I would ban you and a few random people because I felt it was necessary and had a bad day. After that I would transfer some people who complained about this to other forums, and force The Great Simba to agree with me on this topic by threatning to ban him.
Then I and opuslola could rule over this thread until he decided it was time to get rid of me, and he would ban me. A cover story and some propaganda would be made up, and he would manipulate his posting statistics to appear more successful.

So I dont think the USSR was more democratic than the USA, even if you use the terms for economy. Statistics were manipulated, people were deported, and those who complained were jailed and sometimes tortured, even in those states under heavy soviet influence as the DDR in eastern Germany, which is seen as socialist as far as I know.

If you use facism as a term for a system of economic democracy, then how does forced labour fit in, which was used by National Socialist Germany? You might say the facist leadership has more than the authority, but not the responsibility of a democratic citizen...

If we ignore that you mentioned the USSR and overlook the shortcomings of all historic forms of facism, communism and socialism and treat the actual ideals behind them, we find similar problems.

How would an ideal facist economy treat its citizens? Maybe you have a different idea of facism than me, but if the term of facism can be used on economy at all, the economy would only work to satisfy the needs of the leader of the state and its single political party. The citizens rights would always be treated as a lower priority than the states power. The mentality of an employee you criticize in americans in terms of obediance would be even more extreme in a facist system, where the individuals wishes and needs are to be supressed.

Now you still didnt define your idea of socialism. If you call the nordic wellfare system of scandinavia socialist, then this might actually be more democratic than the american system. If you however see former seperated eastern Germany, the DDR, as socialist, then we encounter the same problems we have with communism. The problem is, that both never worked as they were planned, because cunning individuals turned them over and used them to satisfy their own needs. The economic "efficiency" can be seen in communist chinas "great leap forward", which left farmers enthusastically melting their metal farming tools for (mostly useless and brittle) cast iron, leading to a famine which killed houndreds of thousands of people.

I dont know much about the japanese economy, but maybe I will finally understand your reasoning if you set it into contrast with the american system as you described it already.


Edited by Van_Möck - 28-Jul-2010 at 13:54
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2010 at 15:13
First of all, I am getting tired of Carol spouting out the word "democracy" in connection with Facism and Communism!

Here happpens to be a good article about "DEMOCRACY!"

Please explain how the above, fits aywhere within the sphere of Facism or Communism (Which according to the "Socialist experts", has yet to be achieved anywhere at any time!)

I mean, just what majority of Russians "voted" for Uncle Joe? Or, Hitler?, or Bennito?, that is after they had already taken power via other not very "democratic" means?

And, again, I would not want to ever live in a real democracy! I happen to love our "Representative" government!
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2010 at 15:30
Actually, the Bolsheviks had the support of the majority of the Russian people when they took power. Hitler also came to power democratically and had the support of the majority of the Germany people.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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