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Democracy,compatible with huge population
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Democracy,compatible with huge population
    Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 14:20
Some times i wonder whether democracy is actually compatible in States with huge populations,like China or India( those examples are strictly used for their populations numbers ,and not for their current political system).Can it actually be succesfull in countries with really big populations?
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 15:51
No, it becomes an oligarchal dictatorship because those who have established themselves in power can play different elements of the population against each other for their (the ones in power) benefit.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 07:50
As long as it is not direct democracy which was applied in Athens, and which we can see examples in today's Switzerland, like Janus said, it totally becomes an oligarchy. Because after the representatives are elected, they have no responsibility towards the people and they don't have to give an account...
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Depends on the type of democracy I would say...
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Posts: 316 		  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 13:05

I allso think it's not compatible with huge amounts of people simply because most of them don't even have primary education and vote emotionaly for parties that they connect with personal ideas or experiances.Such voting leeds to the electing of communist and nationalist parties.The best form of democracy for me is when only people that graduated College or University or atleast High school can vote.It's simply not fare for me that the vote of an educated Doctor of science or even a Proffesor is equal to the vote of an idiot that can't even read for example but votes because he was prommised good future from a party.This might sound like oligarchy but that kind of "citizenship" in Rome for example worked perffectly,although it wasn't democracy.Just imagine if we put this way of giving "citizenship" only to people that graduated and are considered educated and only they can vote.It would not be somekind of aristocrathic title and would not be recieved as a heritage.If you remember because of the "stupid" crowds did communism prosper in many countries and the intelectual groups were destroyed. 



Edited by Jagiello - 08-Apr-2007 at 13:09
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 13:25
Democracy seems to fail as soon as the numbers rise to 2 people, unless one is considerably stronger than the other.

Edited by Paul - 08-Apr-2007 at 13:29
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Imo the "democracy" is compatible with huge populations, if country has only two political parties.
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 22:15
Originally posted by Jagiello

IThis might sound like oligarchy but that kind of "citizenship" in Rome for example worked perffectly,although it wasn't democracy.Just imagine if we put this way of giving "citizenship" only to people that graduated and are considered educated and only they can vote.



Sounds very interesting. But it still would not be fair for the lare majority of people who are unable to recieve an education. Their voice should be heard as well.
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Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
  -- Winston Churchill
 
Democracy is also the most difficult form of government of all - but who promised it would be easy? It's the only choice if you value the rights of the individual.
 
"At least high school education to vote?" - that would exclude most people from voting, specially poor people.
But who cares about poor people? - they have nothing for anyone to rob - only poverty, and who wants that?
Of course anyone should be able to vote, regardless of education, wealth, faith and so on.
If there should be regulations for voting, it should be this:
If your income is in the top 30% bracket, you cant vote. That would level things out and could provide more equality for everyone.
 
The ideal society is where only few has too much, and even fewer too little. You need democracy for that.
 
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 17:39
Originally posted by Northman

 

If there should be regulations for voting, it should be this:
If your income is in the top 30% bracket, you cant vote. That would level things out and could provide more equality for everyone.



What?! That is crazy! Just because people have high paying jobs they can't vote?! That is just as bad as saying poor people can't vote because they are poor and uneducated!


Edited by Adalwolf - 16-Apr-2007 at 17:39
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 21:17
I think that was the point Adalwolf.

most of them don't even have primary education and vote emotionaly for parties that they connect with personal ideas or experiances.Such voting leeds to the electing of communist and nationalist parties.

Shocked The communist government in Kerala state India is doing very well thank you. But then again - Kerala does have one of the highest education levels in India. Damn communists, they even educate people!
It's the only choice if you value the rights of the individual.

Democracy doesn't protect the rights of the individual at all. It values the rights of the biggest mob. I much prefer military dictatorship (with a good dictator) for rights.
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Posts: 316 		  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 07:39
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I think that was the point Adalwolf.

most of them don't even have primary education and vote emotionaly for parties that they connect with personal ideas or experiances.Such voting leeds to the electing of communist and nationalist parties.

Shocked The communist government in Kerala state India is doing very well thank you. But then again - Kerala does have one of the highest education levels in India. Damn communists, they even educate people!
It's the only choice if you value the rights of the individual.

Democracy doesn't protect the rights of the individual at all. It values the rights of the biggest mob. I much prefer military dictatorship (with a good dictator) for rights.
 
Well,i don't know about Kerala but i know of atleast 20 states where all educated and wealthy people were massacred by the poor and stupid when communists came.It was the idea that everybody should be equal-equally stupid and poor.And a "communist" government is something that doesn't exist in ant country in the world.There are socialist governments like those in China and Cuba but none of them is communist.Communism is the highest form of socialism and it isn't compatable neither with education nor with wealth.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 22:01
Communism isn't compatable with wealth (its the whole point isn't it), but education on the other hand has done very well in Communist countries. Communist countries have excellent records in literacy, numeracy, and Russia was at the forefront of scientific discovery in its communist days.
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Posts: 316 		  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 07:42
Things like maths,psysics,chemistry were learnt on a big scale in communist countries because they don't have anythong to do with ideology-the "tabu" topic in communist countries.Subjects like phylosophy,ethics,law(roman and international),politics and especially history were almost forgoten.History for example was being written by special members of the communist party so that people learn how great Russia and how bad the west was.So,as a whole,education wasn't as good for the whole population-good for scientists that won't revolt.Intelectuls like phylosophers and good historians however were a rare site and weren't treated very well.
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Posts: 115 		  Quote sreenivasarao s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 09:15
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim



Democracy doesn't protect the rights of the individual at all. It values the rights of the biggest mob.

When it comes to the question of individual rights and freedom, nothing compares with Anarchy. Look at this:

No political philosophy I ever heard of loves the human race as much as Anarchism. Every other way of looking at the world says that people have to be controlled and ordered around and governed. Only Anarchism trusts the human being enough to let him work it out for himself.

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 09:29
Originally posted by Jagiello

I allso think it's not compatible with huge amounts of people simply because most of them don't even have primary education and vote emotionaly for parties that they connect with personal ideas or experiances.Such voting leeds to the electing of communist and nationalist parties.The best form of democracy for me is when only people that graduated College or University or atleast High school can vote.It's simply not fare for me that the vote of an educated Doctor of science or even a Proffesor is equal to the vote of an idiot that can't even read for example but votes because he was prommised good future from a party.This might sound like oligarchy but that kind of "citizenship" in Rome for example worked perffectly,although it wasn't democracy.Just imagine if we put this way of giving "citizenship" only to people that graduated and are considered educated and only they can vote.It would not be somekind of aristocrathic title and would not be recieved as a heritage.If you remember because of the "stupid" crowds did communism prosper in many countries and the intelectual groups were destroyed. 

Sounds very like Aristotle's argument justifying slavery. The 'idiots who can't even read' have to be looked after and guided by those who can.
 
 
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Posts: 316 		  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 12:31
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Jagiello


I allso think it's not compatible with huge amounts of people simply because most of them don't even have primary education and vote emotionaly for parties that they connect with personal ideas or experiances.Such voting leeds to the electing of communist and nationalist parties.The best form of democracy for me is when only people that graduated College or University or atleast High school can vote.It's simply not fare for me that the vote of an educated Doctor of science or even a Proffesor is equal to the vote of an idiot that can't even read for example but votes because he was prommised good future from a party.This might sound like oligarchy but that kind of "citizenship" in Rome for example worked perffectly,although it wasn't democracy.Just imagine if we put this way of giving "citizenship" only to people that graduated and are considered educated and only they can vote.It would not be somekind of aristocrathic title and would not be recieved as a heritage.If you remember because of the "stupid" crowds did communism prosper in many countries and the intelectual groupswere destroyed.


Sounds very like Aristotle's argument justifying slavery. The 'idiots who can't even read' have to be looked after and guided by those who can.




Well,my opinion is the idiots that can't even read shouldn't be allowed to rule and determine the faith of all others.They shouldn't be slaves and have no rights but also shouldn't be masters and their votes to be with same value as those of the educated people.And after all,slaves don't choose to be slaves.They are either born or made slaves.Most of the uneducated people have chosen to leave school or just didn't want to learn.I'm talking about the wealthy countryes where even the poor can become educated.
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Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 22:02

Access to information and abilitiy to understand it is more important to a democracy than population size. Which is why there's censorship in China and why there's so much manipualtion of the media in the west.

 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 23:47
Originally posted by Jagiello

...Well,my opinion is the idiots that can't even read shouldn't be allowed to rule and determine the faith of all others.They shouldn't be slaves and have no rights but also shouldn't be masters and their votes to be with same value as those of the educated people.And after all,slaves don't choose to be slaves.They are either born or made slaves.Most of the uneducated people have chosen to leave school or just didn't want to learn.I'm talking about the wealthy countryes where even the poor can become educated.
 
The idea of democracy is that idiots cancel it out LOL.
 
If you make a election system where only the smart and educated can vote, it won't be a democracy anymore, but a meritocracy. Something like the bureocrats of ancient China.
 
Democracy is the believe ALL MAN ARE equal, regardless of education, social possition and even intelligence.
 
That's what most people in the West believe in. Even the underdeveloped Latin America have very clear that democracy is the voice of the masses, particularly the ones that lack education.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 23:49
Originally posted by DukeC

Access to information and abilitiy to understand it is more important to a democracy than population size. Which is why there's censorship in China and why there's so much manipualtion of the media in the west.

 
 
Dictatorship is incompatible with a free market economy. If China continues to be sucessful economically it will have to turn to democracy. Otherwise things will explode in social revolts. They will start at the first economical downturn.
 
It has happened many times before. There is nothing to stop it to happens in China.
 
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